Linux-Advocacy Digest #867, Volume #29 Thu, 26 Oct 00 19:13:05 EDT
Contents:
Re: Linux growth rate explosion! ("MH")
Re: Linux growth rate explosion! ("Nik Simpson")
Re: An entire morning wasted on a Linux install. (Jim Broughton)
Re: And another one, Claire, sweetie (.)
Re: Linux 2.4 mired in delays as Compaq warns of lack of momentum (Steve Mading)
Re: IBM to BUY MICROSOFT!!!! (Steve Mading)
Re: $500 PC with 30 Linux Applications Pre-Installed (R.E.Ballard ( Rex Ballard ))
Re: And another one, Claire, sweetie (Steve Mading)
Re: IBM to BUY MICROSOFT!!!! (2:1)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "MH" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux growth rate explosion!
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 16:51:18 -0400
> > And note that numbers of Linux users are actually DOWN 11% from July
> 2000
> > even though total visitors are up by 9.5% (43 million).
Of course. Web browsing with NN on linux is worse than going backwards in
time.
NN 3.0 on Windows is a more enjoyable experience. Once the "thrill" of
watching 'ls' fill your transparent Eterm is gone, it's time to get on with
the business of getting on.
> > Now lets look at July 2000 502483035
> >
> > 1. Win 98 318538810 (63%)
> > 2. Win 95 101594073 (20%)
> > 3. Win NT 41047771 (8%)
> > 4. Win 2000 11423496 (2%)
>
>
> > 5. Unknown 11038874 (2%) Linux variants/squid
> > 8. Linux 1543963 (0%)
> > 9. Unix 1214391 (0%)
>
> Total 13797228 (2.7%)
>
> Growth
> Sept= 15021658
> July= 13797228
> Growth= 1224430
>
> Not bad. 1.2 million new Linux users. It's a start :-).
Sure seems a *tad* less than your bloated numbers.
> Allowing for the fact that Linux-friendly ISPs use IP Chaining
> to fold multiple IP addresses into a single address. Sufficient
> to say that the number would be closer to 3-4 times the number
> shown by thecounter. Keep in mind that thecounter public survey
> results only count the last os-type used on each sampled IP address.
> Other factors include dual-boot systems (Linux as secondary), WINE,
> and secondary desktop/servers accessed through X11 or VNC.
>
> This would put the Linux population at around 45-60 million,
> with growth at 2-3 million per month.
Really? That's quite an interesting bit of math you've got there.
Too bad it's factually unverifiable. Oh well.
Dual boot systems? Uh huh. Where are you getting those stats?
And I'll bet that the number of installed linux systems on home users
computers that get wiped off after < 1 month is probably half of your figure
for monthly growth.
To use an old campaign slogan --albeit slightly munged...
"It's the apps stupid!"
------------------------------
Reply-To: "Nik Simpson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
From: "Nik Simpson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux growth rate explosion!
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 17:00:52 -0400
"MH" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:8ta5bm$tll$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > This would put the Linux population at around 45-60 million,
> > with growth at 2-3 million per month.
>
> Really? That's quite an interesting bit of math you've got there.
> Too bad it's factually unverifiable. Oh well.
> Dual boot systems? Uh huh. Where are you getting those stats?
same place Rex gets all his other stats, somewhate south and to the rear of
his navel.
--
Nik Simpson
------------------------------
From: Jim Broughton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: An entire morning wasted on a Linux install.
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 21:54:55 GMT
"R.E.Ballard ( Rex Ballard )" wrote:
>
> In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> Many thanks to Jim for the script/command line version of these
> commands.
>
> Just for the record, there are several GUI tools for configuring
> the network as well. These include netconfig(Red Hat), linuxconf
> (everybody), DrakConf (Mandrake), and YAST (SuSE). In addition,
> once you get your ethernet card set up, you can use a web browser
> to configure Linux as well.
>
> Try them all, you'll probably find one that you like particularly
> well. (I like linuxconf because I know it's on all distributions).
>
> [snip]
> > >
> > > Question #2 How could I have installed to the Laptop via FTP from
> the
> > > CDROM mounted on the network CDROM? With a bare harddrive how would
> I
> > > go about doing this. Is there some cookbook (I am network
> challenged)
> > > procedure somewhere?
> > >
> > > I'd like to get this thing back to him tonight so he can play with
> > > Linux a bit.
> > >
> > > Claire
> >
> --
> Rex Ballard - I/T Architect, MIS Director
> Linux Advocate, Internet Pioneer
> http://www.open4success.com
> Linux - 60 million satisfied users worldwide
> and growing at over 9%/month! (recalibrated 10/23/00)
>
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.
Thank god slackware does NOT use linuxconf. It is not on my system
though it may have been available as an add on or contrib package.
That piece of !#$%^& should be banned. Its the main reason I no longer
run redhat on my personal box.
--
Jim Broughton
(The Amiga OS! Now there was an OS)
If Sense were common everyone would have it!
Following Air and Water the third most abundant
thing on the planet is Human Stupidity.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (.)
Subject: Re: And another one, Claire, sweetie
Date: 26 Oct 2000 21:55:06 GMT
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> See above
Above what?
Claire, you really need the help of that guy who was writing your posts
for you for a while there. You obvously have no idea how usenet nor
newsreaders work.
=====.
------------------------------
From: Steve Mading <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux 2.4 mired in delays as Compaq warns of lack of momentum
Date: 26 Oct 2000 22:03:51 GMT
In comp.os.linux.advocacy Relax <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message news:8t83qo$fld$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
:> In article <39f76a1d$0$32632$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
:> NT4, NT5, 95, 95OSR2, 98, 98SE, ME -- they all
:> have their little quirks you have to program around.
: Hmm, probably the same (or worse?) across different flavors of Unix.
But different flavors of unix don't all come from the same
copmany. If, for example, the various versions of Solaris were
as splintered as the various flavors of Windows are, then this
would indicate something very disorganized going on at Sun.
------------------------------
From: Steve Mading <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: IBM to BUY MICROSOFT!!!!
Date: 26 Oct 2000 22:07:10 GMT
In comp.os.linux.advocacy Chad Myers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
: Linux is a niche and has about 2 more years left on it's "15 minutes"
: of fame... if that. And that's ONLY if they ever manage to ship the
: 2.4 kernel and it isn't a major embarassment (which it's already
: turning out to be)
Yeah, when they start putting Linux into appliances like for example
a television set, then it'll be somewhere... Oh, wait, that's right,
the Tivo.
------------------------------
From: R.E.Ballard ( Rex Ballard ) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: $500 PC with 30 Linux Applications Pre-Installed
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 22:17:53 GMT
In article <K%nJ5.7763$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
"Weevil" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:8sulpe$seg$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > What if we sell $500 PCs with an entire Linux software library pre-
> > installed? Let OEM install Linux and its applications so that users
> > can do their office work instead of wasting time on tech support or
> > rebooting the computer (something you do often in Windows).
> >
> > There's no new hardware or software to design. Just take a $500
Intel-
> > compatible PC, pre-install Linux, StarOffice, Netscape Communicator
and
> > a few other high quality Linux applications and start selling today!
> >
> > High quality, open-source software is free. Check out this superb
> > software library of Linux applications from SuSE corporation. You
get
> > Linux (crash proof operating system used by millions worldwide),
> > StarOffice (word processor, spreadsheet, database, presentation,
> > graphic program, office suite superior to MS Office used by
millions),
> > Netscape Communicator, MP3 player, RealNetwork RealPlayer, Napster,
> > TrueType fonts, Solitaire game, Apache web server (most websites
run on
> > this), C/C++ compiler, Java compiler, SQL database application, Palm
> > Pilot support, and 1900+ other open-source applications you can
install
> > on your computer for FREE.
> >
> > A full list of applications is at:
> >
http://www.suse.de/en/produkte/susesoft/linux/Pakete_prof/gesamt.html
> >
> > The home page for the software library is at:
> > http://www.suse.com/us/products/susesoft/70news/70_pro_news.html
> >
> > The price is $69.95 for 1900+ high quality applications.
> > SuSE makes a profit at that price.
Keep in mind that much of that $69.95 is mark-up of retailers and
distribution chains. The rest goes to users support. For OEMs,
the price can drop significantly, since the OEM knows what settings
to use and can simply clone a properly configured drive thousands of
times.
> > The anti-trust trial revealed Microsoft thoughts on Linux. The
> > internal e-mail indicates that Microsoft and Intel will split over
> > Linux, with Microsoft considering buying AMD to compete with Intel
> > if that chip maker ever supports Linux.
Which is ironic since Microsoft hasn't endorsed AMD significantly in
the past, in part because the K6 and K7 are very popular with the
budget-minded Linux community.
[snip]
> >
> > At computer industry speed, computer makers
> > everywhere will pre-install
> > the SuSE software library of 1900+ Linux
> > applications and sell powerful
> > $500 computers by Christmas of 2001.
Actually, we may see something like this this Christmas. Compaqs
Ipaq and a Linux version similar Microsoft's "Internet Companion"
are coming out from multiple vendors.
Certainly by March 2000 we should be seeing dozens of Linux Desktop
machines. These will probably be MUCH smaller than traditional PCs,
similar to the Cobalt Qube, and the Corel LinSurfer. These are small
boxes about the size of a Zip drive with parallel/SCSI port, ethernet
port, USB keyboard/mouse ports, and a video port (possibly HDTV video).
The USB might also support additional devices as vendors catch Linux
fever.
Dell, IBM, Gateway, Toshiba, Compaq, and Sony are all offering linux
powered desktops, laptops, and set-tops. In addition, TiVo is
showing that Linux can be friendly enough and reliable enough for
even computer phobic users.
> > What if software were free? It would destroy Microsoft.
> > This article explains that open source,
> > high quality software is already available
> > for free.
Keep in mind that enterprise support licenses, including 24/7
emergency service from Red Hat sells for over $950/machine/year.
This is an offer they can make because Linux is remotely servicable.
The money is in the service, not the royalties.
The concept of the "Software Cornicopia", where a programmer writes
a program in 3 months and sells 2 million copies for $500 each and
becomes a billionaire in less than a year is a myth. Even Microsoft
must spend nearly 1/2 their income (nearly all of the money they make
in "royalties" on advertizing, support, legal, and marketing. In fact,
most of Microsoft's "profits" are actually income from investments
paid for with royalties collected from companies who attempted to
pirate Microsoft software.
> > What if hardware were free? It would destroy Intel and the
> > computer manufacturers.
Again, if you consider what the functions of a computer are
(information, communication, and presentation) one can see that
there are numerous revenue models. TiVo could be given away by
cable companies who received higher cable/internet fees for
providing TiVo boxes. Essentially, the consumer would lease
the machines.
In the past, leases were less desirable to vendors because they ended
up with a returned machine that amounted to a $200 "Hazardous Waste"
liability. Today, vendors can remarket lease-returns to other
countries, to low-income families, and as simpler appliances.
The Average Windows PC had a life-span of 2 years before it became
garbage. The average UNIX machine can see service in numerous
different roles for up to 10 years before it literally costs to much
to plug it in (power consumption).
> > Keep in mind that the FREE Microsoft
> > web browser toppled the Netscape
> > dominance of that market.
Actually, that wasn't what did it. Microsoft insisted that every
OEM install ONLY IE on the desktop. OEMs could put Netscape in a
subdirectory of a subdirectory of the start menu, but not on the
main desktop or main start menu. This limited Netscape's ability
to generate advertizing and tie-in revenue that would have allowed
it to PAY THE OEMs for a position on the desktop.
Ironically, Netscape is still retaining a very large market segment
among corporate customers who have been badly burned by trojan horses
passed through IE. The most dramatic example being Internet Exploder
which was passed through an ActiveX control and corrupted the hard
drive.
> > Linux and the SuSE software library will
> > destroy the Microsoft monopoly.
Not just SuSE. The problem is that Microsoft now has 8 formidable
competitors including SuSE, Red Hat, Mandrake, Caldera, TurboLinux,
Corel, Slackware, and FreeBSD. Technically, FreeBSD is not Linux
but it does offer enough Linux compatibility to establish a
significant market share.
Microsoft is already feeling the pain. Win2K sales have been slower
than expected, as have WinME sales. Revenues from Operating System
environments have dropped quite a bit, and the majority of the income
is coming from investments, not software.
> > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> > Before you buy.
>
> I'm all for it. I'd *love* to see a bunch
> of Linux boxes displayed next to
> the Winboxes at my local computer store.
> Identical hardware, but the Linux
> pricetag would be what, $200 cheaper
> than a Win2K box? $100 cheaper? $300?
> Whatever the difference, it would jump out
> at the customer. Part of the
> sales pitch could be a short price list
> of Windows apps and the equivalent
> Linux apps. Of course, the Linux apps
> would all be $0, and the Windows apps
> would add up to thousands on just a brief list.
Actually, a really good "skunk" would be to create dual-boot systems
that booted Windows98 or ME with Microsoft Works AND Linux with 1900
applications, with best-of-breed preconfigured for the desktop.
In addition, add full support for WINE, full support for SINE, Audio,
and other key configurations so that the user can run both Linux and
3rd-party (non Microsoft) Win95 applications directly.
Quite simply, the user loses almost nothing (still has "core" Windows
capabilities), and gets all the benefits of Linux.
> On the other hand, computer stores might not
> have a lot of incentive to go
> along with the idea.
> They do, after all, make a lot of money on software.
> Linux distributions give the same software away for free.
> That's not good
> news for the CompUSAs of the world.
Keep in mind that CompUSA could make money in a number of different
ways. The Corel model is to include a free copy with a 30 day
expiration that can be renewed via the internet, upgraded with
shrink-wrapped software that includes extra templates and graphics,
or upgraded to a much more powerful office suite.
There's also the Red Hat model, get the software, cheap but pay
anywhere from $70 to $1000 per machine for service contracts that
range in services from phone support, free upgrade packages, and
free e-mail support (we'll get back to you whenever) to 24/7 telephone
and remote-access support. CompUSA already sells "Service cards" up
there, next to the cash register.
Keep in mind that CompUSA rents the floor space to the software
publishers, charging higher prices for better positions.
Who's to say that every one of these 1900 packages couldn't turn into
their own "shrink-wrapped boxes"? Sure, you'd get the GPL version
with some basic artwork and wizards, but with the "shrink-wrapped"
version or a "support card", you get access to copyrighted graphics,
trademarked characters, and wizards, as well as both technical
and "eye-candy" support.
Keep in mind that your grocery store has made an industry out of
taking soap (made from animal fat and lye) and adding various
combinations of perfumes and additives that make it bath soap,
facial soap, laundry soap, dishwashing liquid, shampoo, and carpet
cleaner.
Essentially, most of the software sold on Windows is software that
originated in the foundries of BSD and Simtel-20 public domain and
were prettied up with eye-candy to become marketable shrink-wrapped
products.
Even Microsoft word took the ispell spell checker from emacs, the
"style" and "diction" programs from UNIX, and the integration of
AUIS - **ALL** of which preceeded their Microsoft counterparts by
a year or **MORE** (ispell 1984, in Word 1990, style&diction 1985
added to word in 1991). AUIS 1988, MS-Office in 1993.
The dates may not be exact, but the order of first release is
correct.
It may be that Microsoft is using NDAs to protect intellectual
property illegally used in a manner which violates the original
GPL license agreements under which they were released. That
would probably qualify as the biggest scam of the 20th century.
Essentially, this would mean that Microsoft bilked nearly 1/2 billion
people for nearly $200 billion over 10 years for software that was
protected by the General Public License.
A recent settlement with Corel over patent claims indicates that this
may be the case. At this point however, it' just the opinion of a
"guy in the diner". Anyone investigating?
> jwb
--
Rex Ballard - I/T Architect, MIS Director
Linux Advocate, Internet Pioneer
http://www.open4success.com
Linux - 60 million satisfied users worldwide
and growing at over 9%/month! (recalibrated 10/23/00)
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
------------------------------
From: Steve Mading <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: And another one, Claire, sweetie
Date: 26 Oct 2000 22:31:28 GMT
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
: See above
: claire
"See above"?? What, you mean the newsgroup headers? Oh, wait, I
get it, you are trying to pretend that your replies are appearing
in a sane order, where they belong, underneath the text they refer
to. Sorry, I'd assumed that you forgot the top-down nature of
English text long ago.
English is big-endian, not middle-endian.
: On Thu, 26 Oct 2000 10:05:42 +0000, Jacques Guy
: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
:>
:>A chap commenting on defrag taking 4 hours on a 30 Gig hard disk:
:>
:>> That happens with me sometimes, and I have had more trouble with
:>> ME than 98.
:>
:>Come on, sweetheart, give the sod your usual "Dork"!
------------------------------
From: 2:1 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: IBM to BUY MICROSOFT!!!!
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 01:56:28 +0100
Chad Myers wrote:
>
> "2:1" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > Chad Myers wrote:
> > >
> > > "2:1" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > > > > > Now, fixing that is not a bit deal...I add a line to lilo.conf that
> says:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > append = "mem=163264k"
> > > > >
> > > > > Note: If you get this wrong, KERNEL PANIC...
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > No shit Sherlock!
> > > >
> > > > Guess what? If I put random crap in the registry, then BLUE SCREEN.
> > > >
> > > > Guess this makes windows real shitty...
> > >
> > > No, because you wouldn't have cause to go in and edit the registry
> > > for basic OS functionality, which Linux lacks.
> > >
> > > In Linux, I am forced to edit my lilo.conf which teeters on the
> > > brink of OS failure because the OS is too dumb to detect the
> > > basic geometry of the system.
> >
> > Meanwhilst, my Linux box detects all 72 M of ram, but I have to hack the
> > windows registry to met mousefocus.
>
> "met mousefocus"? WTF are you talking about?
get mouse focus. Simple typo. In windows, it's usually click focus.
> > Here is my point:
> > You said if you put a wrong number in mem=, you get a krenel panic.
> >
> > I said, of course you do. If you put wierd stuff in the windows
> > registry, you get a blue screen.
>
> And it's not a valid point. Ok... here's some more simple logic
> (which you guys seem to have such a hard time with):
You complained that giving Linux bad info would cause a kernel panic.
Well, guess what, windows isn't that good at detecting the right cards
(has trouble with my Ne2K PCI clone). If you give it the wrong
drivers... gues what? BSOD.
> With Windows, I have not need to edit the registry, so that circumstance
> is rare, if ever. However, with linux, editing the lilo.conf is a basic
> part of setting up Linux (unless you like having only 16MB or 64MB
> of RAM)
That just isn't true. I have 72M of ram which is detected perfectly. I
kmow many other cases where this happens. I haven't actually seen an
incorrect detection yet.
> and so if you setup linux, you edit the lilo.conf. Your chances
> of putting in a wrong number (which you're never really sure, because
> there's nothing that tells you if it's 127MB on this system or 128MB
> on that system because the documentation is so poor) or a typo are
> DRASTICALLY HIGHER.
Windows doesn't know which net card I have. The driver disk has drivers
for several models. If I choose the wrong one, it dies horribly. Well,
I'd expect it to and I'd expect Linux to do the same under the same
circumstances.
> > As you can see, your point about the kernel panic proves nothing about
> > Linux, except that (like all oss) wierd configurations will kill it, if
> > they are wierd enough.
>
> wierd configurations? Setting the memory because the OS is too inept to
> discover it itself is a wierd configuration? Man, you guys need to
> seek therapy.
No... giving the wrong memory size is a wierd configuration.
-Ed
--
Konrad Zuse should recognised. He built the first | Edward Rosten
binary digital computer (Z1, with floating point) the | Engineer
first general purpose computer (the Z3) and the first | u98ejr@
commercial one (Z4). | eng.ox.ac.uk
------------------------------
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