Linux-Advocacy Digest #682, Volume #30 Wed, 6 Dec 00 07:13:03 EST
Contents:
Re: A Microsoft exodus! ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: A Microsoft exodus! ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: A Microsoft exodus! ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: A Microsoft exodus! ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: A Microsoft exodus! ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: A Microsoft exodus! ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: A Microsoft exodus! ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: Windoze 2000 - just as shitty as ever ("Aaron R. Kulkis")
Re: A Microsoft exodus! ("Aaron R. Kulkis")
Re: MSN and AOL-Time Warner: Is Microsoft being hypocritical? ("Aaron R. Kulkis")
Re: A Microsoft exodus! ("Aaron R. Kulkis")
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: A Microsoft exodus!
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 10:00:30 GMT
Steve Mading writes:
>> That's the problem with Aaron's argument. It can be used to claim that
>> nothing is intuitive. You're quite right to note that intuitiveness is
>> not an absolute.
> If you really admitted that intuativeness was not an abosulte, you
> would refrain from making such blanket statments as "vi is not
> intuative".
Fortunately, I didn't make such a blanket statement. I did indicate that
the use of hjkl for cursor movement is not intuitive to the first-time vi
user. That's a rather small subset of vi.
> If you really believed intuativeness was relative,
> then that type of statement would require some qualifiers.
Fortunately, I didn't make such a blanket statement. I did use some
qualifiers. Did you bother to read my statements?
------------------------------
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: A Microsoft exodus!
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 10:08:31 GMT
Russ Lyttle writes:
>> Steve Mading writes:
>>>> Why are you citing evidence that destroys your argument, Aaron?
>>>> Familiarity (or experience, to use my word for it) does not have
>>>> to be universal before something can be declared "intuitive".
>>>> Here's a good rule of thumb: if you need to consult the manual,
>>>> it's not intuitive.
>>> Everyone has to "consult the manual" (or a friend, or the on-line
>>> help) at some point early in their learning process.
>> I know some first-time computer users that did not need to consult
>> the manual or a friend to know what to do with the power cord, for
>> example.
> I have earned a lot of money plugging in power cords for people.
Congratulations. I know people who replace water heaters, and they
also plug in the power cord for customers while installing the
replacement appliance.
> The first electronics job I had was making calls to fix TV sets.
Not to install them? Televisions that hadn't yet been used don't
usually require fixing.
> About half the time the problem was the power cord wasn't plugged in.
But was it because they didn't know that it had to be plugged in, or
had it accidently become unplugged without them knowing it? There's
a big difference there. I've seen it happen to people many times.
> I learned very quickly not to just plug in the cord and send a bill
> for $50. I would futz around a while, take the back off, look intent.
> Then put the back on and plug it in.
You're admitting to what some people would consider a "dishonest"
service call?
> When PCs came out, there were more power cords not to be plugged in
> and thus more business.
Some people prefer to have experts install new gizmos for them.
Doesn't mean that they don't have the intuition to plug it in for
themselves.
>>>SNIP<<
------------------------------
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: A Microsoft exodus!
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 10:16:20 GMT
Marty writes:
>>>> Invective five times does not make a logical argument, Aaron.
>>> How ironic.
>> Where is the alleged irony, Marty?
> See below.
"Below" doesn't contain any evidence for irony, Marty.
>>> DT] Still suffering from reading comprehension problems, Marty?
>>> DT] Reading comprehension problem noted again.
>>> DT] Reading comprehension problem noted again.
>>> DT] Reading comprehension problem noted again.
>>> DT] Still suffering from memory problems, Marty?
>> Where did any of those appear in my responses to Aaron, Marty?
> Non sequitur.
On what basis do you make that ridiculous claim, Marty? I see that
you didn't answer my question.
>>> MA] I'll give you a limit of 5 before the discussion ends.
>> Any particular reason you chose to reproduce that quotation, Marty?
> More evidence of your reading comprehension problems.
On what basis do you make that ridiculous claim, Marty? I see that
you didn't answer my question.
>> Do you intend to apply that to this discussion?
> Very good, Dave.
Yet another question of mine that you didn't answer.
>> Of course, if you do, I know better than to believe it.
> One wouldn't expect that you'd know better than to be illogical.
Where have I allegedly been illogical, Marty? That's your
department.
>> I'll also note that you chose not to say anything about the issue,
> On the contrary, I've addressed the irony of your comment directly.
Where did you allegedly do that, Marty?
>> which is whether anything about a computer can be intuitive.
> More evidence of your reading comprehension problems.
On what basis do you make that ridiculous claim, Marty?
>> No surprise there.
> You're presupposing that I was attempting to surprise you.
Incorrect; I'm merely stating the lack of any surprise on my part, Marty.
> That's a particularly illogical presupposition,
You're erroneously presupposing that I made an illogical presupposition,
Marty.
> given that my posting was composed entirely of an article which you've
> already read and to which you've already replied.
So why bother reposting it, Marty?
>> You'd rather play more of your "infantile game".
> More invective, eh?
On what basis do you call it "invective", Marty? That's your own
description for your behavior.
> To paraphrase you: Invective six times does not make a
> logical argument, Dave.
Irrelevant, given that I didn't use invective, Marty.
------------------------------
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: A Microsoft exodus!
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 10:19:01 GMT
Marty writes:
>> Aaron R. Kulkis writes:
>>>> Marty writes:
>>>>>> Invective five times does not make a logical argument, Aaron.
>>>>> How ironic.
>>>> Where is the alleged irony, Marty?
>>>>> DT] Still suffering from reading comprehension problems, Marty?
>>>>> DT] Reading comprehension problem noted again.
>>>>> DT] Reading comprehension problem noted again.
>>>>> DT] Reading comprehension problem noted again.
>>>>> DT] Still suffering from memory problems, Marty?
>>>> Where did any of those appear in my responses to Aaron, Marty?
>>>>> MA] I'll give you a limit of 5 before the discussion ends.
>>>> Any particular reason you chose to reproduce that quotation, Marty?
>>>> Do you intend to apply that to this discussion? Of course, if you do,
>>>> I know better than to believe it.
>>>>
>>>> I'll also note that you chose not to say anything about the issue,
>>>> which is whether anything about a computer can be intuitive. No
>>>> surprise there. You'd rather play more of your "infantile game".
>>> Tholen...do you smell all that shit?...
>> You mean yours or Marty's?
> Don't you know?
Why do you think I asked, Marty?
> It's your head up one of our asses afterall.
Incorrect, Marty.
>>> it's the inside of your rectum.
>> Illogical.
> Agreed. Aaron's or my shit would not wind up inside of your rectum.
Irrelevant, given that yours or his doesn't have to be there for me
to smell it, Marty.
>>> I suggest removing your head from that place.
>> I suggest that you practice what you preach.
> Are you suggesting that Aaron's head is currently inside of your rectum?
"Don't you know?"
--Marty Amodeo
------------------------------
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: A Microsoft exodus!
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 10:23:23 GMT
Les Mikesell writes:
>>> You don't have to specifically learn "d$" to synthesize if
>>> from previous knowledge.
>> What previous knowledge tells you the function of "d$"?
> It would be a special case only if it is the first vi command
> you see.
Well, it's been a while, but I suspect that the first vi commands
I saw were i, Esc, and ZZ. That made d$ still a special case.
> Vi commands are virtually always in the form:
> [count] command [where]
> You probably already know that [count] means an optional
> number can precede a command as a repeat count or as
> a rare special case if the command is G, the number specifies
> an absolute line number.
Assuming that you remember that you're in command mode.
> Thus as you need and learn the
> different command letters and ways to describe the optional
> [where] you don't need to relearn arbitrary new ways to
> combine them.
$ still can mean either end of line or end of file. Only the
"end" portion is consistent.
------------------------------
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: A Microsoft exodus!
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 10:25:02 GMT
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>>> Everyone has to "consult the manual" (or a friend, or the
>>> on-line help) at some point early in their learning process.
>> I know some first-time computer users that did not need to
>> consult the manual or a friend to know what to do with the
>> power cord, for example.
> That's because they're already familiar with how to handle a power
> cord when they dealt with hundreds (if not thousands) of other
> electrical appliances.
Precisely what helps to make something intuitive, contrary to Aaron's
claim.
> The ATX power _switch_, on the other hand, is counter-intuitive. How
> do you switch OFF the computer? Is that really OFF (i.e. disconnected
> from the main sockets electrically)?
I'm not familiar with the ATX.
------------------------------
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: A Microsoft exodus!
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 10:26:30 GMT
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>> The fact that it needs to be learned is what makes
>> something not intuitive.
> So, walking and talking are intuitive, aren't they?
Did I say that walking and talking do not need to be learned?
------------------------------
From: "Aaron R. Kulkis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windoze 2000 - just as shitty as ever
Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 06:56:00 -0500
Nigel Feltham wrote:
>
> >However...Microsoft REFUSES to even allow this as an option.
> >
> >Why is that?
> >
>
> Because this would be true inovation and not just stealing or buying
> someone else's ideas so why would MS do this.
Precisely.
--
Aaron R. Kulkis
Unix Systems Engineer
ICQ # 3056642
H: "Having found not one single carbon monoxide leak on the entire
premises, it is my belief, and Willard concurs, that the reason
you folks feel listless and disoriented is simply because
you are lazy, stupid people"
I: Loren Petrich's 2-week stubborn refusal to respond to the
challenge to describe even one philosophical difference
between himself and the communists demonstrates that, in fact,
Loren Petrich is a COMMUNIST ***hole
J: Other knee_jerk reactionaries: billh, david casey, redc1c4,
The retarded sisters: Raunchy (rauni) and Anencephielle (Enielle),
also known as old hags who've hit the wall....
A: The wise man is mocked by fools.
B: Jet Silverman plays the fool and spews out nonsense as a
method of sidetracking discussions which are headed in a
direction that she doesn't like.
C: Jet Silverman claims to have killfiled me.
D: Jet Silverman now follows me from newgroup to newsgroup
...despite (C) above.
E: Jet is not worthy of the time to compose a response until
her behavior improves.
F: Unit_4's "Kook hunt" reminds me of "Jimmy Baker's" harangues against
adultery while concurrently committing adultery with Tammy Hahn.
G: Knackos...you're a retard.
------------------------------
From: "Aaron R. Kulkis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: A Microsoft exodus!
Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 07:04:42 -0500
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> Aaron R. Kulkis writes:
>
> > Tim Smith wrote:
>
> >> Aaron R. Kulkis wrote:
>
> >>>>> Put a computer in front of a person from a remote village which
> >>>>> has no electrical service, and let's see how "intuitive" the
> >>>>> power switch is.
>
> >>>> OK, now you are getting silly. Give those villagers electricity, and
> >>>> all the usual electrical applicances other than computers, and let them
> >>>> become comfortable with them, THEN give them a computer. The power switch
> >>>> on the computer will be intuitive to them.
> >>>>
> >>>> You are confusing "intuitive" with "instinctive".
>
> >>> http://www.asktog.com/papers/raskinintuit.html
> >>>
> >>> Jeff Raskin, "Intuitive Equals Familiar", Communications of the ACM,
> >>> vol 37, no 9, Sept, 1994, pg 17.
>
> >> I'm confused. I'm not sure if we are agreeing or disagreeing. I'd say
> >> the power switch on the computer is intuitive, because anyone who is
> >> likely to be using a computer is very likely to have experience with
> >> power switches on other things.
>
> > Translation: Anybody with a computer is likely to have previous
> > experience with power switches from other electrical appliances.
>
> Isn't that the whole idea behind intuitive design, to use something
> familiar?
No, you idiot.
What is often *CALLED* intuitive is really just familiarity.
To be TRULY "intuitive" as *IMPLIED* by the word, *ANYBODY*
can figure it out, without explanation, because it does NOT
rely upon previous experience.
That was the point of the whole damn article, you
non-comprehending shit-for-brains.
>
> >> "Intuitive" is not an absolute, but
> >> must be interpreted relative to the general background of the user.
> >> That seems to agree with Raskin's article (although I only skimmed it).
>
> > Intuitive implies "you know how to use it because it's function
> > is obvious from the first time you encounter it"
>
> The obvious nature of the function comes from experience or
> familiarity with similar features of other products.
A wheeled cart is intuitive, because no prior experience is needed to
to understand how to use it.
A modern automobile is not.
>
> > However, the use of power switches are NOT obvious.
>
> Why not?
To start off, because the mechanism is usually invisible,
and the ELECTRICITY is definitely invisible...especially
when it's not flowing.
>
> > For example...a WAGON is intuitive...
>
> Not to a six-month-old baby. Thus using your "primitive tribesman"
> reasoning, we can conclude that a wagon is also not intuitive.
Harking to the undeveloped mind of a 6-month old is NOT
a winning strategy, MORON.
>
> > you don't need instructions nor to witness examples of other
> > people using it to quickly figure out how to use a wagon to
> > transport goods.
>
> You do need to know that a wagon is capable of movement. Take
> someone unfamiliar with the concept of a wheel.
Easily learned.
> > On the other hand...the power switch on many electronic devices
> > (especially stereo equipment), that it is NOT immediately obvious
> > to the uninitiated what it's function is.
>
> Stereo equipment tends to have lots of buttons, thus the need to
> label one of them "Power", or similarly. Nevertheless, some
> designers purposely make the power switch oversized and in the
> corner to avoid that very problem and make it more intuitive.
So, other than the word "power", what makes a power switch
different from any other switch?
Anwer: NOTHING
>
> > Especially if the label "power" or "on/off" were removed from
> > the vacinity of the power switches on many pieces of high-end
> > audio equipment.
>
> You mean the ones that tend to have lots of buttons on them?
Could beeeeeeeee!
>
> > Many of them have front panels with so many controls that even
> > people with a "first-world standard of living" are bewildered
> > by them.
>
> Precisely why your analogy fails, and precisely why I chose to
> use a television or a radio as a better example.
Relying upon the degenerate case is not a winning stratgey, MORON.
>
> > If you were to remove all of the labels from this
> > equipment, the average american would take a couple of tries
> > to even determine which switch is, in fact, the power switch.
>
> Precisely why your analogy fails, and precisely why I chose to
> use a television or a radio as a better example.
Relying on the degenerate case is not a winning strategy, moron.
>
> > Additionally, if it were not for labels, the power switch
> > and the reset switch on most computers look identical.
>
> On what basis do you speak for "most computers"? I have several,
> and some of them don't even have a separate reset switch, and of
> those that do, it's recessed and accessible only to the point of
> a pen, for example.
Relying upon special cases is not a winning stategy, moron.
>
> > If two IDENTICAL switches have non-identical behavior, then
> > how can the function of the switch itself be "intuitive"?
>
> You're presupposing the existence of two identical switches.
> Not at all computers are designed with two identical switches.
So what?
Suppose one switch is purple, and the other is blue.
Tell us, oh great master...which one is the power switch.
>
> >> (Of course I mean desktop computers...laptop designers seem to enjoy
> >> trying to hide the power on mechanism).
--
Aaron R. Kulkis
Unix Systems Engineer
ICQ # 3056642
H: "Having found not one single carbon monoxide leak on the entire
premises, it is my belief, and Willard concurs, that the reason
you folks feel listless and disoriented is simply because
you are lazy, stupid people"
I: Loren Petrich's 2-week stubborn refusal to respond to the
challenge to describe even one philosophical difference
between himself and the communists demonstrates that, in fact,
Loren Petrich is a COMMUNIST ***hole
J: Other knee_jerk reactionaries: billh, david casey, redc1c4,
The retarded sisters: Raunchy (rauni) and Anencephielle (Enielle),
also known as old hags who've hit the wall....
A: The wise man is mocked by fools.
B: Jet Silverman plays the fool and spews out nonsense as a
method of sidetracking discussions which are headed in a
direction that she doesn't like.
C: Jet Silverman claims to have killfiled me.
D: Jet Silverman now follows me from newgroup to newsgroup
...despite (C) above.
E: Jet is not worthy of the time to compose a response until
her behavior improves.
F: Unit_4's "Kook hunt" reminds me of "Jimmy Baker's" harangues against
adultery while concurrently committing adultery with Tammy Hahn.
G: Knackos...you're a retard.
------------------------------
From: "Aaron R. Kulkis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: misc.invest.stocks,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: MSN and AOL-Time Warner: Is Microsoft being hypocritical?
Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 07:07:07 -0500
jtnews wrote:
>
> Isn't it hypocritical for Microsoft to complain about getting
> shut out of AOL-Time Warner's broadband network when they
> effectively shut out Linux on all the cheapest PC's?
yes
--
Aaron R. Kulkis
Unix Systems Engineer
ICQ # 3056642
H: "Having found not one single carbon monoxide leak on the entire
premises, it is my belief, and Willard concurs, that the reason
you folks feel listless and disoriented is simply because
you are lazy, stupid people"
I: Loren Petrich's 2-week stubborn refusal to respond to the
challenge to describe even one philosophical difference
between himself and the communists demonstrates that, in fact,
Loren Petrich is a COMMUNIST ***hole
J: Other knee_jerk reactionaries: billh, david casey, redc1c4,
The retarded sisters: Raunchy (rauni) and Anencephielle (Enielle),
also known as old hags who've hit the wall....
A: The wise man is mocked by fools.
B: Jet Silverman plays the fool and spews out nonsense as a
method of sidetracking discussions which are headed in a
direction that she doesn't like.
C: Jet Silverman claims to have killfiled me.
D: Jet Silverman now follows me from newgroup to newsgroup
...despite (C) above.
E: Jet is not worthy of the time to compose a response until
her behavior improves.
F: Unit_4's "Kook hunt" reminds me of "Jimmy Baker's" harangues against
adultery while concurrently committing adultery with Tammy Hahn.
G: Knackos...you're a retard.
------------------------------
From: "Aaron R. Kulkis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: A Microsoft exodus!
Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 07:08:26 -0500
Les Mikesell wrote:
>
> "Tim Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
> > When I edit a document with vi, my mental state is that I am using vi.
> > When I edit a document using a good GUI editor, my mental state is that
> > I am working on my document. That's pretty unclear...basically, with a
> > good GUI editor, the document somehow seems to be the focus, whereas
> > with vi, the editor is the focus. (If anyone understands what I'm
> > trying to say, and can restate it more clearly and coherently, please
> > jump in!)
>
> That is a very good description but I don't think anyone who doesn't
> use vi will get it. The most obvious example would be your first
> choice of how to move around. With a GUI and your focus on the
> document, you tend to use motions (mouse/cursor/etc.) until you see
> what you want, where with vi it is much more natural to give a command
> like "/pattern" to position you there directly. A side effect is that
> many commands are repeatable with the '.' command. For example
> if you decide to change the word you found in a search and used the
> command cw to do it, you can repeat the search with 'n' until you find
> another match that you want to change, then hit '.' to do it.
>
Which is why I prefer vi to wysi(almost)wyg editors.
> Les Mikesell
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
Aaron R. Kulkis
Unix Systems Engineer
ICQ # 3056642
H: "Having found not one single carbon monoxide leak on the entire
premises, it is my belief, and Willard concurs, that the reason
you folks feel listless and disoriented is simply because
you are lazy, stupid people"
I: Loren Petrich's 2-week stubborn refusal to respond to the
challenge to describe even one philosophical difference
between himself and the communists demonstrates that, in fact,
Loren Petrich is a COMMUNIST ***hole
J: Other knee_jerk reactionaries: billh, david casey, redc1c4,
The retarded sisters: Raunchy (rauni) and Anencephielle (Enielle),
also known as old hags who've hit the wall....
A: The wise man is mocked by fools.
B: Jet Silverman plays the fool and spews out nonsense as a
method of sidetracking discussions which are headed in a
direction that she doesn't like.
C: Jet Silverman claims to have killfiled me.
D: Jet Silverman now follows me from newgroup to newsgroup
...despite (C) above.
E: Jet is not worthy of the time to compose a response until
her behavior improves.
F: Unit_4's "Kook hunt" reminds me of "Jimmy Baker's" harangues against
adultery while concurrently committing adultery with Tammy Hahn.
G: Knackos...you're a retard.
------------------------------
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