Linux-Advocacy Digest #682, Volume #33 Wed, 18 Apr 01 03:13:04 EDT
Contents:
Re: Could Linux be used in this factory environment ? (Franek)
Re: Could Linux be used in this factory environment ? (Franek)
Re: Who votes for Sliverdick to be executed: AYEs:9 NAYS:0 (1 ABSTAIN)
([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: Could Linux be used in this factory environment ? (Brent R)
NYC LOCAL: Wednesday 18 April 2001 The Internet Society New York: YouthCaN
([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: Microsoft gets hard (Paul Colquhoun)
Re: Could Linux be used in this factory environment ? (Brent R)
Re: What's the point (Brent R)
Re: What's the point (Brent R)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Franek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.hardware,comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: Could Linux be used in this factory environment ?
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 06:18:32 GMT
Chad Everett wrote:
> Man..that ladder logic is the wierdest way to program I've ever seen.
Not to an electrician, though. Your thinking inside the box. Consider historical
circumstances, and realize that factories exist for a long time, and they were not
quite
un-automated before the advent of PLCs. Computerization and automation aren't one and
the
same thing.
------------------------------
From: Franek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.hardware,comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: Could Linux be used in this factory environment ?
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 06:19:28 GMT
Hartmann Schaffer wrote:
> maybe the problem was with the application, but didn't it take nt down with
> it?
I wasn't there at the moment <g>.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Crossposted-To:
misc.survivalism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,soc.singles,alt.society.liberalism,talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: Who votes for Sliverdick to be executed: AYEs:9 NAYS:0 (1 ABSTAIN)
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 23:23:41 -0700
"Aaron R. Kulkis" wrote:
>
> "Gunner ©" wrote:
> >
> > On Tue, 17 Apr 2001 15:08:44 -0400, "Aaron R. Kulkis"
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > >> >
> > >> > Hehehehhehe
> > >>
> > >> I'm not registered to vote in this precinct, but since I'm a registered
> > >> Democrat does that matter? <G>
> > >>
> > >
> > >Since Democrats don't care about such niceties, you are allowed
> > >to vote AYE in the election, regardless of where you live.
> > >
> > >
> > In fact Sue... you can even vote more than once. Feel free to fill out
> > the form in your hometown, and again while visiting Fresno.
> >
>
> In the spirit of the Democrat Party, I'll make that 5 AYEs for Sue
> 4 in her home town, and one in Fresno.
As a Democrat I suppose I should demand some money for my votes, but
I've reformed over the last few years so you're welcome to 'em.
Sue
> AYE: 9
> NAY: 0
> ABSTAIN: 1
------------------------------
From: Brent R <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.hardware,comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: Could Linux be used in this factory environment ?
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 06:31:25 GMT
Erik Funkenbusch wrote:
>
> "Jean-David Beyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > I thought that a few years ago, the U.S.Navy tried a computer
> > controlled battleship, and the computers ran Windows NT (probably 3.51
> > in those days), and it crashed so bad the ship had to be towed into
> > port. (I may not have the facts exactly correct, but it was pretty
> > much like this.) Maybe the computers were not exactly your
> > bargain-basement PCs, but the software must have been. If the U.S.Navy
> > is dumb enough to use Microsoftware in a battle-critical system, why
> > would not some private industry be just as dumb?
>
> Why let the facts get in the way of a good dis, right? Your lack of
> knowledge on the issue doesn't seem to prevent you from jumping to
> conclusions.
>
> The facts in the matter are a) that it wasn't a battleship, and b) that they
> were running a beta version of the control software which did not validate
> entry fields. As such, when an operator entered a 0 into a field, it was
> stored in the database, causing all subsystems that depended on that
> information to fail with a divide by zero exception.
>
> The application could not be restarted because every time they restarted it,
> it would re-read the data values and crash again, thus the ship was dead in
> the water. Further, the ship wasn't towed in, the ship had alternate
> propulsion mechanisms onboard because it was an experimental project running
> beta software.
>
> The Navy and the canadian company that wrote the software stated that the
> problem was not related to NT in any way. In fact, the canadian contractor
> laid the blame on the Navy for not installing their validated version before
> the incident, which would have prevented the problem from ever occuring.
>
> The navy, however, believed that they should shake out the vessel and see
> where the potential failures might be so that in real emergency situations,
> they would know how to respond.
Still, I think their point was that a single application brought the
entire show down... a situation that's critical when it really matters
(which admittedly it usually doesn't).
I've been an MS defender in here... still I would never use NT to do
something like that... that's just not what it's made for. UNIX is more
apptly suited in that role.
--
- Brent
http://rotten168.home.att.net
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.misc,comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc
Subject: NYC LOCAL: Wednesday 18 April 2001 The Internet Society New York: YouthCaN
Date: 18 Apr 2001 02:29:15 -0400
<blockquote
edit-level="light">
ISOC-NY, Computer Advocacy @ NYU, & I*EARN present
YouthCaN 2001 -- a panel presentation
Wednesday, April 18, 2001
7:30 pm
New York University
Student Events Center, Room 406
5 Washington Place (at Mercer)
Free and Open to the Public
Refreshments Served
YouthCaN 2001
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.nyu.edu/projects/youthcan
YouthCaN is a youth run organization that uses technology to inspire,
connect and educate people worldwide about environmental issues.
Through a network of conferences, activities and events we unite
environmentally active youth to exchange ideas about the environment
and empower others to make a difference in their own communities.
YouthCaN is facilitated by adult volunteers, graduate students, teachers,
I*EARN personnel, and museum staff.
PRESENTERS:
Millard Clements PhD
New York University, School of Education
Environmental Conservation Education
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.nyu.edu/projects/youthcan/
Along with Jim Van Tassell, Millard was an early user
of communications technologies with school-age students.
Together they initiated what became YouthCaN.
=======
James L. Van Tassell PhD
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Ichthyology, Biology Department
Hofstra University
Home page: http://home.att.net/~jvantassell
Jim Van Tassell has been using communications technologies
for about 20 years. Before he completed his Phd in Ichthyology
he was a science teacher in the H. Frank Carey High School.
Years ago he taught his students to use Fido Nets. Over the years
his students have made vital contributions to YouthCaN.
He is a genuine pioneer in the use of communications technologies.
=======
Ed Gragert
iEARN-USA
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.iearn.org
Ed Gragert has worked for many generations of YouthCaN projects and
activities. Ed is an international leader in the uses of changing
communications technologies with school-age students. Ed has published an
article in the January/February 1999 issue of the ISOC publication
"OnTheInternet", titled: "The Internet Potential for an Education of
HOPE."
iEARN is a co-sponsor of YouthCaN. iEARN is a vital educational community
of teachers and students in approximately 70 nations around the globe,
connecting Youth and making a difference in the world. The vision and
purpose of iEARN, the International Education and Resource Network, is to
enable young people to undertake projects designed to make a meaningful
contribution to the health and welfare of the planet and its people.
=======
Jay Holmes
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Department of Education
American Museum of Natural History
http://www.amnh.org
Jay Holmes has worked from the beginning of YouthCaN.
He is skillful with changing communications technologies. He has
extraordinary gifts for working creatively with school-age students and
a deep knowledge and awareness of environmental issues.
======
Jon Turbin
DeWitt Clinton High School
The Bronx, New York
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.nyu.edu/projects/youthcan
Jon Turbin has had students involved with YouthCaN in recent years. He has
an Ed. D from Columbia University Teachers College in the field of
Foundations of Education. He has spent his whole life as a passionate
political activist for social justice and human rights, envisioning the
possibilities for educating and organizing for a humane world for each and
all. Jon was an early educator user of the computer and telecommunications
and has won various awards from NYCENET (New York City Education Network),
Impact II (a national teacher advocacy agency of the Board of Education),
and was selected as computer teacher of the year by James Monroe High
School and the former Bronx Superintendent Joseph De Jesus. He feels that
having his students participate with IEARN and YouthCan in their important
environmental work is as one way to make a difference, especially in the
youth, the world, and for the future in these trying times.
======
Tiffany Eng
La Guardia High School
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
(718) 271-1151
Tiffany has just returned from Athens, Greece. She made a YouthCaN
presentation there to an International Youth conference.
==========
Wileyda Cardona
High School for Environmental Studies
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Wileyda attended an iEARN conference in Beijing last July.
She, along with other YouthCaN students, made
presentations dealing with YouthCaN activities.
=====================
YouthCaN: Some History
YouthCaN, Youth Communicating and Networking, is a telecommunications
project, a community of students, adult mentors, and annual meetings that
attract more than one thousand students, teachers and parents each year to
project, a community of students, adult mentors, and annual meetings that
attract more than one thousand students, teachers and parents each year to
the American Museum of Natural History. YouthCaN is in its tenth year.
YouthCaN began some years ago when New York University students in the New
York University Environmental Conservation Education program initiated
small demonstrations of telecommunications projects at The United Nations.
An early project had a teacher and seven elementary school students
demonstrate telecommunications projects connecting a school in Queens and
a school in Florida. Students in Queens and Florida on a particular day in
the Fall and in the Spring took a walk in the school neighborhood. They
took notes on the weather, temperature, birds, plants, animals, trees and
other forms of `life` that they saw. The schools reported to one another
about this life in their own community. There were online questions
and discussion of what life was like in the two places.
For a number of years YouthCaN activities were organized in association
with The United Nations Environment Programme youth events. At one
such event the name YouthCaN was coined. That year we had 350 students
who were involved in telecommunications and about 700 students who
attended a parallel event coordinated with YouthCaN. There were several
workshops, demonstrations and plenary events including video
phone conversations with students in other nations of the world.
YouthCaN events are now planned, organized and administered by elementary
and high school students with support from university students, American
Museum of Natural History staff, I*EARN, the H. Frank Carey High School
Ecology Council and a number of New York City teachers.
It is a project in "kids teaching kids" about technology and the
environment. Workshops deal with a range of environmental issues such as
endangered species, recycling, pond ecology, air pollution, toxic waste
and restoration projects. Computer workshops include developing Home
Pages, e-mail, exploring WWW and developing cooperative projects with
schools and organizations in the New York area and to some degree around
the world. We have had video phone and computer video communications with
students in Argentina, Australia, Spain, China, Canada, India and Africa.
YouthCaN has lived through many changes in technology. We know
something of FIDO Nets, Luma Phones, News groups, gophers, the web,
video conferencing and we will deal with the changing communications
technologies of the world of today.
Many schools in the New York area have computers, some have modems but
many schools do not have teachers with skills in computer
telecommunications. Our YouthCaN workshops and year long activities are
intended to facilitate development of computer skills and environmental
awareness in school communities of the greater New York area.
Some schools are actively involved and provide leadership to YouthCaN
activities; many schools participate in our annual conference of workshops
and demonstrations of telecommunications and the environment.
Algunos de los temas ambientales
y sociales que se exploraran en la conferencia son:
Contaminacin del aire.
Estudiantes que estan participando en la
Contaminacin del aire.
Estudiantes que estan participando en la
toma de decisiones ambientales a nivel poltico.
De donde proviene el agua que
tomamos?
Calentamiento de la tierra Parques Nacionales
Aves en peligro de extincin.
Mano de obra juvenil como su vida diaria afecta el medio
ambient.
Although this is a Kids teaching Kids project, there are many
opportunities for adult mentors with skills in technology, knowledge of
environmental issues, and the ability work with young people in
cooperative activities.
=======================================================
A, E, C, B, D, F and Q Trains to West Fourth Street
N, R Trains to Eighth Street (uptown side only due to subway work)
6 Train to Astor Place
For more extensive travel information see:
Maps to NYU: http://www.nyu.edu/maps.nyu/
The space is wheelchair accessible.
http://www.isoc-ny.org
</blockquote>
Distributed poC TINC:
Jay Sulzberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Corresponding Secretary LXNY
LXNY is New York's Free Computing Organization.
http://www.lxny.org
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Paul Colquhoun)
Crossposted-To:
comp.arch,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.linux.hardware
Subject: Re: Microsoft gets hard
Reply-To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 06:40:10 GMT
On Tue, 17 Apr 2001 13:43:34 -0400, JS PL <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
|
|"Matthew Gardiner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
|news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
|> JS PL wrote:
|> >
|> > "David Ehrens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
|> > news:aFHC6.18762$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
|> > > "JS PL" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
|> > > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
|> > > ...
|> > > > That looks pretty proportional to their claim of 32,000 worldwide!
|> > >
|> > > Microsoft partners include companies who have several MS-certified
|> > > (MCSE, MCP, MSD) employees on staff, or who at one point were
|interested
|> > > in riding the Microsoft wave. I am one of the many former "paper"
|> > > partners that MS had at one point. The advantages to these programs
|were
|> > > minimal, aside from the legitimacy that certification confers on
|> > > individual technicians. For instance, we had to pay distributor prices
|> > > 5-10x higher than Compaq, Dell, and Gateway for product, were
|> > > continually beat up by educational "partners" who were selling product
|> > > illegally at academic discount prices, and as a company outside an
|urban
|> > > hub, were routinely passed over (in referrals) in favor of preferred
|> > > partners in major cities, in some cases in other states. It was a big
|> > > disappointment. I know others who bailed out of various MS programs.
|> > >
|> > > I don't care if Microsoft can prove they have 500,000,000 partners.
|> > > Their allegiances lie with companies in their size and weight class,
|not
|> > > small consulting or integration outfits.
|> >
|> > So before we get away from the assinine Linvocate statement that "there
|is
|> > ONE word for a Microsoft Business partner, extinct"
|> > Since you actually are or "were" classified as a Microsoft Business
|Partner,
|> > I can safely assume that your now "extinct" like the other 32,000 that
|he
|> > claims are now extinct, since all business partners of Microsoft are
|> > supposedly EXTINCT? Or could it be that there are really NO business
|> > partners who are extinct, or such a small percentage that it mirrors the
|> > natural rate of extinction?
|> >
|> > You see, it's these stupid assed statements that will be the death of
|Linux.
|> > Normally when someone is choosing between two people to do business
|with,
|> > they WON'T choose the guy that's bad mouthing and making proposterous
|> > statements against the competitor. Statements like, "there's one word
|> > for......." show nothing but immaturity and poor judgement. Not good
|> > qualities.
|> Just out of general curiousity, what is your occupation and what company
|> do you work for?
|
|I do things which truly astound and bill for it.
You contract out as a stage magician?
--
Reverend Paul Colquhoun, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Universal Life Church http://andor.dropbear.id.au/~paulcol
-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-
xenaphobia: The fear of being beaten to a pulp by
a leather-clad, New Zealand woman.
------------------------------
From: Brent R <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.hardware,comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: Could Linux be used in this factory environment ?
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 06:46:56 GMT
Franek wrote:
>
> Charles Lyttle wrote:
> > However there are a number of manufacturers who make PC equals for the
> > factory floor. They are much lower cost than traditional factory
> > hardware, especially HP or Sun systems. These systems cost lots more
> > than CompUSA trash, but still are cost effective, *IF* they have a good
> > OS loaded. Linux does have competitors in this market, QNX being one.
> > But the cost of a single BSOD is high enough to keep Windows out.
> er... I've done some work on the "factory floor" and I've used different operating
> systems. First (I'll probably be crucified now) linux crashes just as well as NT,
> especially with some of the crap that's out there (of course it doesn't show blue on
> screen <g>, maybe that makes it preferable.) Second, NT is used an *awful* lot in the
> factory environment, and again, it's not that bad, no Sir, not at all. Lastly,
>whatever
> application you're running that *must* not abend, you won't run either on NT or
>linux, or
> anything else of the kind. For critical real-time control none of these will do. QNX
>will
> do, as will some specialized systems like DCSs or PLCs. General-purpose boxes
>normally run
> user interfaces, data collection, recipe loading, this kind of things, not the RT
>control.
> This stuff can be rebooted relatively harmlessly.
>
> The problems with NT have rather something to do with:
> - cost of licensing and idiotic conditions with artificial limitations
> - goddamned size of it (linux can be chopped up and configured *exactly* for that
>task you
> need)
> - related to the previous: a potentially higher cost of hardware--sometimes it's
> important.
>
> > --
> > Russ Lyttle
> > "World Domination through Penguin Power"
> > The Universal Automotive Testset Project at
> > <http://home.earthlink.net/~lyttlec>
Hmmm... if you read my other posts and you'll see that I am in no way a
MS-basher... usually I'm bashing some of the Linux kooks in here... but
I have never had Linux even come close to crashing. I love pressing the
CAPS key and watch the light actually go on and off without failure
(something I could not do in in Windows98). The problems I've had with
Linux have all been related to X, the GUI locks up and I press
CTL-ALT-BCKSPCE and take down the GUI. So needless to say the really
important stuff in Linux I do on an alternate text-login.
I've had problems with NT, not nearly as bad as Windows 98 but with more
problems then Linux. I personally can't tell if it's due to bad
administration or what... it also has to do with a misbehaving app
locking up the system (and the three fingered salute doesn't bring up
the NT process screen right away). NT is also a huge resource hog...
Linux is more compact with comparable (probably better) stability and
endurance.
I would suggest that the only reason why NT is making inroads is that
company's are making apps for it... and phasing out UNIX. Look, NT is a
proprietary system just like the commercial UNICES that these companies
used beforehand (I'm assuming), but those products had competitors while
MS has none.
I've never heard of QNX (please divulge). I would wonder if some of
these companies use IBM mainframes? I would probably bypass PC's
altogether and go with a WS or mainframe. Let's face it... PC's are fast
but they're pieces of junk. No one makes a PC that's designed to put up
with the punishment that would be dealt to it on a factory floor. I've
used an IBM mainframe (ES/9000, VSE/ESA) for about 1.5 years now, and
I've seen how much more robust they are and how much PC's suck.
--
- Brent
http://rotten168.home.att.net
------------------------------
From: Brent R <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: What's the point
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 06:56:18 GMT
Eric wrote:
>
> After six years of Windows and one GPF too many, I bought Redhat7 and
> installed it. I expected a learning curve, but nothing like I ended up
> with.
>
> I got my cable modem, printer, cdrom drives, and daily programs going, and
> it took me endless hours - most of them spent trying to fix my display
> resolution, only to find out the config file was XF86config-4 and not
> XF86config. How the hell was I supposed to know that?
Mandrake came with a nifty little program that did it instantly and
painlessly for me. It part of DrakConfig I think, I later used XConfig.
A lot of times there's no need to edit those files directly and
sometimes it may not be desirable to, as a ']' in the wrong place could
end up giving you hours of frustration (it did for me).
For all it's faults... I will say that I was pleasantly surprised with
how Linux responded to my hardware.
> Then I started tackling my digital camera. I followed all the howtos I
> could find - no joy. And I still dealt with crappy looking fonts on my web
> browsers. And that's when I decided to throw in the towel.
You hit the nail on the head. The people who ported NS to Linux should
be shot... what a POS! Bugs, bugs, bugs.
I phased out using Linux after being disappointed in the web-browsing
options.
> After wasting 2 solid weeks of vacation time accomplishing half of what I
> could do in a few hours under windows (even with the crashes and GPFs) I
> wiped my hard drive slick and threw on Windows ME.
>
> So my question is, for the home user, what's the point? Has anyone learned
> Linux from the ground up just to use it at home? What's the advantage? I'm
> convinced Linux is great if you want to run a server or whatever, but is
> there a point in home users running Linux?
Only if you're interested in learning something new, then it can be
rewarding. It was for me all in all... but I now use Windows as well.
Linux is great software that is fatally flawed by a lack of good apps...
maybe when that changes I'll switch back.
--
- Brent
http://rotten168.home.att.net
------------------------------
From: Brent R <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: What's the point
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 07:01:10 GMT
Matthew Gardiner wrote:
>
> Eric wrote:
> >
> > After six years of Windows and one GPF too many, I bought Redhat7 and
> > installed it. I expected a learning curve, but nothing like I ended up
> > with.
>
> Well, good for you. I Moved from my Amiga 500 to a Pentium 75, then
> quickly moved to Linux. At that point, I wouldn't exactly say I was a
> genius to any stretch of the imagination, but atleast I could get Linux
> up and running!
>
> >
> > I got my cable modem, printer, cdrom drives, and daily programs going, and
> > it took me endless hours - most of them spent trying to fix my display
> > resolution, only to find out the config file was XF86config-4 and not
> > XF86config. How the hell was I supposed to know that?
>
> Why edit a file? Drop into command line, type su, if you are in a user
> account, then your password. Once logged in, type setup then enter, and
> select X Configuration from the menu.
Remember to type in the full path to su! You wouldn't want to email
anyone your password now would you?
> > Then I started tackling my digital camera. I followed all the howtos I
> > could find - no joy. And I still dealt with crappy looking fonts on my web
> > browsers. And that's when I decided to throw in the towel.
>
> Who cares? Netscape still uses the Poscript fonts by default. If you
> use Mozilla, the fonts aren't crappy.
Linux NS and Mozilla are deeply flawed software packages, stay far away
from them!
<snip>
--
- Brent
http://rotten168.home.att.net
------------------------------
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