Linux-Advocacy Digest #853, Volume #32 Sat, 17 Mar 01 17:13:02 EST
Contents:
Re: Dividing OS to groups. (Shane Phelps)
Re: Richard Stallman what a tosser, and lies about free software (GreyCloud)
Re: KDE 2.1 oopsie! (Pete Goodwin)
Re: KDE 2.1 oopsie! (Pete Goodwin)
Re: Linux Joke (Donovan Rebbechi)
Re: Mindless suicide! Rediculous Dumbasses! (Bloody Viking)
Re: Mircosoft Tax (Donovan Rebbechi)
Re: Mindless suicide! Rediculous Dumbasses! (Bloody Viking)
Re: which distribution? (Martigan)
Re: KDE 2.1 oopsie! (Peter Hayes)
Re: The Hell of Bill Gates (Martigan)
Re: What Linux MUST DO! - Comments anyone? (GreyCloud)
Re: KDE 2.1 oopsie! (Matthew Gardiner)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Shane Phelps <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Dividing OS to groups.
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 08:15:42 +1100
GreyCloud wrote:
>
[ snip ]
> >
> > I think you forgot AS/400 there.... and what was the os on atari's??
> > brian.
> >
> Thank you! Forgot all about them! Very good computers, the AS/400's were!
> Got a story about IBM and the gov. on that!
> The Navy Dept. invited IBM to come out to a shipyard and survey their needs
> for computing. IBM spent over $2 million on analysis and recommendations...
> the Navy sat on it! Didn't do squat! Too many chiefs and no Indians!
> When I asked them to show me their systems and capabilities they were very
> cold. I asked them what the problem was and they explained it to me. I
> did write a contract for IBM AS/400's, 3 of em, for CAD/CAM, and
> was approved quickly... the secret, as I suspected, was never put more than
> 2 sheets of paper on a bureacrats desk or he won't look at it. (Looks like
> too much work!) I put it on 1 page! The ADP dept. printed a 500 page
> document!
How in the hell did you get an AS/400 approved for CAD/CAM?
They were/are alright for basic business functions (mostly accounting)
but don't do much else.
One of the great AS/400 jokes is that they moved them onto a PPC about
the same time Apple moved the Mac from the 680x0 to the PPC, and got an
order of magnitude speed improvement.
Are you sure it wasn't a RISC-1 or RS/6000? They both made pretty fair
CAD/CAM workstations, but Apollo and Sun were probably better.
------------------------------
From: GreyCloud <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: gnu.misc.discuss,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,misc.int-property
Subject: Re: Richard Stallman what a tosser, and lies about free software
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 13:26:08 -0800
"T. Max Devlin" wrote:
>
> Said Austin Ziegler in comp.os.linux.advocacy on Thu, 15 Mar 2001
> >On Thu, 15 Mar 2001, T. Max Devlin wrote:
> >> Said Austin Ziegler in comp.os.linux.advocacy on Tue, 13 Mar 2001
> >> 14:24:36 -0500;
> >>> On Tue, 13 Mar 2001, T. Max Devlin wrote:
> >>>> Said phil hunt in comp.os.linux.advocacy on Sun, 11 Mar 2001 13:25:08
> >>>>> T. Maxine:
> >>>>>> The US is a democracy. A particular form of democracy, known as a
> >>>>>> Republic;
> >>>>> Actually, it's the other way round: a democracy is a type of republic.
> >>>> Yes, as I said; a republic is a form of democracy. ;-)
> >>> False, maxie.
> >> Quibbling, Austin, with the enthusiasm of one who is not just a pedant,
> >> but a bore. Epistemological posturing aside, our republic is a form of
> >> democracy, whether all are or not.
> >
> >Oh, maxine, you just don't get it, do you? You made a statement about all
> >republics -- NOT one.
>
> Wow, did I really? I suppose I disagreed with some text book somewhere,
> then? Apparently, you just don't get it, do you, Austin?
>
> --
> T. Max Devlin
> *** The best way to convince another is
> to state your case moderately and
> accurately. - Benjamin Franklin ***
Hi all. On the text book part... a while back my professor told me that
never take what a text book says as the gospel truth, in that it may
contains errors. He then went on to demonstrate proofs against errors
in a particular text book published by McGraw-Hill.
I've kept to that method for years and I always cross-researched any
claim some book may profess and indeed have come across an occasional
error.
------------------------------
From: Pete Goodwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: KDE 2.1 oopsie!
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 21:28:59 GMT
mlw wrote:
>> I could, but it immediately crashed again. In fact, anything with a KDE
>> style edit control would crash: Konqueror, KMail etc.
>
> That cuts it, you installed KDE 2.1 incorrectly. I am running 2.1 and have
> zero problems with the edit controls.
I installed KDE 2.1 incorrectly. Am I hearing you correctly. I get a crash,
and it's _my_ fault!
> Unless you really, really know what you are doing, you should use the KDE
> that comes with your distro.
This was the version of KDE that was for SuSE.
Incidentally, the crashing has mysteriously gone away. I do not beleive
that it was my fault this occured - this is an indicator of an underlying
problem with KDE 2.1
And guess what just happened? I used drag and drop to copy an entire
directory from one place to another.
*BANG*
I ended up with just a background. All icons, toolbars etc. all gone.
This is the system that is going to be a Windows Killer? I think not!
I recovered by pressing CTRL-ALT-BACKSPACE, and I was back at a terminal
prompt. I then used CLI to copy the directory structure - as I can't trust
KDE 2.1 to do it (and this was a bug in KDE 2.0 as well!).
--
Pete
Running on SuSE 7.1
All your fly zone are belong to us
------------------------------
From: Pete Goodwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: KDE 2.1 oopsie!
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 21:30:43 GMT
Mig wrote:
> Pete's conclusion that Knode crashes-> KDE 2.1 unstable->Linux Unstable is
> laughable.
Your statement makes me laugh. Since every single edit control eventually
made all KDE applications crash, that tells me KDE 2.1 is unstable.
Now I just tried to use drag and drop to copy a directory - the whole
desktop vanished. No icons, nada, zip, just the background. I killed it and
got back to a CLI prompt and did the copy by CLI.
--
Pete
Running on SuSE 7.1
All your fly zone are belong to us
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Donovan Rebbechi)
Crossposted-To: alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: Linux Joke
Date: 17 Mar 2001 21:36:30 GMT
On Sat, 17 Mar 2001 04:33:00 GMT, J Sloan wrote:
>Donovan Rebbechi wrote:
>
>> Bsiasically, I trust the gcc maintainers to maintain gcc more than I trust
>> RedHat to do the same. In other words, I trust gcc's "real" release more
>> than I trust the unauthorised RedHat version.
>
>What's "authorized" about the what you call the "real" gcc?
I suppose what it boils down to is that I trust the gcc maintainers
to maintain gcc more than I trust Redhat to do the same.
--
Donovan Rebbechi * http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/ *
elflord at panix dot com
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Bloody Viking)
Crossposted-To:
alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,soc.singles
Subject: Re: Mindless suicide! Rediculous Dumbasses!
Date: 17 Mar 2001 21:40:15 GMT
Steve Chaney ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
: I like how in Linux the GUI apps are migrating towards being a front
: end for existing CLI apps. The cli apps authors are being nice and
: putting all their functionality into libraries so GUI apps can
: function through the libraries. Total interchangeability is achieved,
: and the wheel doesn't get re-invented.
That way, you have both CLI and GUI.
: I converted yet another girlfriend to Linux (in curiosity mode, at
: least) by its flexibility. But she can't live without the GUI.
: BTW how do you think newbies should learn Linux?
I originally learned computers with a CLI. However, I admit that the GUI is
better for new people and end users. After a while, they could try a CLI to
see if they like it or not. Most people prefer the GUI as normal end users.
I'm an oddball becuse I prefer a CLI. Linux easally allows both.
I would have to say that people should try a GUI first when trying Linux. With
X, there's fvvm95, which is nice in that it will be rather familiar becuse it
looks like Winblows 95. Of the X fvvm's, that's my favourite.
--
FOOD FOR THOUGHT: 100 calories are used up in the course of a mile run.
The USDA guidelines for dietary fibre is equal to one ounce of sawdust.
The liver makes the vast majority of the cholesterol in your bloodstream.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Donovan Rebbechi)
Crossposted-To: alt.linux.sux,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: Mircosoft Tax
Date: 17 Mar 2001 21:45:02 GMT
On Fri, 16 Mar 2001 19:25:18 GMT, T. Max Devlin wrote:
>Said Donovan Rebbechi in alt.destroy.microsoft on 16 Mar 2001 13:06:19
>GMT;
>Every thing. Everything. Anything. It is an inescapable and
>irrefutable fact of nature that a free market system forces *anything*
>to get cheaper when the demand goes up. That's why we use such a
>system. The more people want something or need something, the more
>efficient the producers get, competitively chasing market profits.
How about gas, for example ? Have prices gone down in the last several
years ?
>>See my other post. A lot of software is very expensivew (eg development
>>software, office suites)
>
>Expensive compared to what? Is the software you *produce* very
>expensive to make?
Expensive compared to Windows , for example.
And yes, software that I produce is very expensive in terms of
my time. It might cost my employers hundreds or thousands
of dollars to get a small library written.
>>I'm not presupposing the existence of such forces at all. I'm merely
>>pointing out the prices of other products comparable to their operating
>>system.
>
>You've given nothing but extremely vague and untenable ideas about what
>makes such a thing "comparable", unfortunately. IOW, you're guessing,
>and picking out random facts which appear to support your argument,
>without stopping to consider that *logic* refutes your argument to begin
>with. (As do those random facts, if you understood them correctly.)
Well, I'd ike to see the logic that does this ...
>>If their product is overpriced, why is it not necessary to at least
>>attempt to make a case that it is more expensive than comparable products ?
>
>Because one must first make a case that the comparison is with a
>"comparable" product. Since you recognize MS is a monopoly, why do you
>have trouble understanding this rather "fatal flaw" in your argument?
>How, and for that matter why, do you expect to get something
>"comparable" to a product which enjoys a monopoly?
I would have thought that a product with comparable functionality would
be a "comparable product". Examples incude MacOS, Linux, OS/2, and
even MS's other operating systems like Win2k .
>And I've already pointed out that it *doesn't matter* what price you
>examine, and despite that there is *no reason* not to use the box set
>price.
Yes there is. The fact that they don't sell many copies at the box set
price is a good reason not to use it. The fact that ylu *can* obtain
it at that price does not mean that most people do.
> What does the fact that it isn't the *same* as the OEM price
>mean? Does it somehow make it impossible for the OEM price itself to be
>higher than it otherwise would be?
Sorry, I don't get what you mean here.
--
Donovan Rebbechi * http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/ *
elflord at panix dot com
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Bloody Viking)
Crossposted-To:
alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,soc.singles
Subject: Re: Mindless suicide! Rediculous Dumbasses!
Date: 17 Mar 2001 21:45:19 GMT
Steve Chaney ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
: However, Suzy office worker, the people I am trying to sell on Linux,
: will never ever as long as they live, want to deal with the command
: line. Ever. Never. Forget it. The linux elitist faction would say
: banish these people to Windows.
Just add "startx" to the .login script! (assuming you have X installed and
working) The invention of the GUI made it a lot easier on end users to use
their computers. The elitist types as you allude to tend to now want to use
computing power for "eye candy". Nothing wrong with "eye candy" but some of us
prefer the old fashioned CLI.
--
FOOD FOR THOUGHT: 100 calories are used up in the course of a mile run.
The USDA guidelines for dietary fibre is equal to one ounce of sawdust.
The liver makes the vast majority of the cholesterol in your bloodstream.
------------------------------
From: Martigan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: which distribution?
Crossposted-To: aus.computers.linux
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 21:53:46 GMT
Christopher Fardell wrote:
>
> Which is better Mandrake 7.2, Corel Linux original version or Redhat 6.2?
> Which supports the most hardware?
> which comes with the most software with it
>
>
> From Chris
>
>
Well I am now successfully runing MD 7.2 (my ISDN was a pain) and I like it
much better than Calder, or RH. Dunno about Corel, but is based off of
Debian so that's a different way for me.
Now that I have connectivity I only use Windoze for work.
------------------------------
From: Peter Hayes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: KDE 2.1 oopsie!
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 21:52:34 +0000
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Sat, 17 Mar 2001 09:42:59 -0500, mlw <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Pete Goodwin wrote:
> >
> > "And lo it came to pass, that I desire to post an article, so I did take
> > up mouse and keyboard, and enter via the excellent application called
> > KNode. Yea verily, it did crash out on me, whereas before it had worked
> > fine".
> >
> > This is on SuSE 7.1 Personal, with KDE 2.1. You know, the Windows killer.
> > Got a ways to go yet, I see.
>
> So, knode crashed on you. Too bad, submit a bug report to the authors.
>
> Funny that you say there is a ways to go, because lets look at the
> circumstances:
>
> Knode has worked for a long time, and this is your first problem with it.
> Obviously not perfect, but clearly head and shoulders beyond anything on
> Windows for stability, ala Outlook (aka LookOut!).
FWIW I've *never* had Agent crash on me in Windows. It crashed a few times
running under an earlyish version of Wine, 990131, but recent Wines have
been rock solid as well.
Peter
------------------------------
From: Martigan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: The Hell of Bill Gates
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 21:56:05 GMT
Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
> Bill Gates dies and goes to Hell. Lucifer says,
> "Okay Bill, now that you're in Hell, I gotta
> explain what tortures you will endure. First,
> you will get all the free cheeseburgers and
> cokes you want. Second, you have 24-hour
> access to prostitutes any time you want.
> Third, you can select from a wide array of
> multi-media performances, any time you want."
>
> Lucifer goes on and on about all of the
> things that Bill may enjoy in Hell, and
> Bill's thinking, "Man, except for my
> big house, bowling alley, and electronics
> gear, this is really ... cool!"
>
> "Say, Lucifer, this all looks pretty cool.
> But I'm really hungry right now. Where can
> I get a cheeseburger?"
>
> Lucifer guides Bill over to an alcove in
> which sits a small box, similar to a microwave
> over. "This box will serve you a menu of
> your choice. Enter your name."
>
> Bill obeys.
>
> "Now enter your selection."
>
> Bill scans the deeply-nested dialog box,
> scrolls through a long list box, and
> selects a cheeseburger and a coke.
> Then he hits the Enter key.
> A prompt comes up:
>
> PLEASE ENTER YOUR ACCESS CODE
>
> Bill starts rocking back and forth.
> "What the hell is this stupid crap? All
> I want is a frikkin' cheeseburger!!!!"
>
> "Oh," said Lucifer, "I almost forgot. Here
> is your access code for the microwave..."
>
> Bill grabs the card, and enters
> W4XJ7-7V8WW-JQDWZ-7MH6W-9FCT3-432CW-2DSWR-QPS43-
> 34DSQ-WED31-RWUOW-TH84L-DHTLT-32WTR-WDE34-CRAP2
> and out comes his cheeseburger and coke.
>
> "Thanks, Lucifer," says Bill, and he turns to
> go.
>
> "Wait a second Bill, you forgot your other
> access codes." Lucifier pulls out a thick wad
> of folded cards and hands it to Bill.
> "Whatever you do, don't lose these cards.
> And have a nice time in Hell."
Nice way of looking at it!
------------------------------
From: GreyCloud <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: What Linux MUST DO! - Comments anyone?
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 13:59:32 -0800
Pete Goodwin wrote:
>
> In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> says...
> > >For example, configuration can be a real hassle, especially since once u
> > >have installed Linux for the first time u have a zillion configuration
> > >files to slog through I have had to slog through a whole host of FAQ's,
> > >books, Man Pages, HOWTOs, smart asses telling you to learn vi... etc in
> > >order to get and keep everything running nicely.
> >
> > vi and a "whole host of FAQs, books, Man pages, HOWTOS"
> > - versus -
> > regedit and no documentation.
> >
> > Bringing up a Linux installation is *easier* than doing it in Windows.
>
> Easier for whom?
>
> I found it easier to bring up Windows on my home PC than Linux.
>
> > > A Linux box needs
> > >someone who is willing to perform the function of a sysadmin and that
> > >function could imo be made much simpler by standardizing the format of
> > >conf files to XML - this would make it a lot easier to create universal
> > >configuration tools and a wider range of preconfigurations.
> >
> > plain-text and vi *are* universal configuration tools.
>
> Actually they are just plain text and a text editor. There's nothing to
> do with configuration about them.
>
> --
> Pete
Hi all. I had purchased a Compaq Presario and tried to install a couple
of different versions of linux on it. Linux boot disk tried to boot and
then failed in its tracks.
Of course under windows, when I hit start and then run and tried to
browse the a: drive the computer locked up. So I took it back to the
store and got my money back and bought an IBM. Booted the linux disk
and everything went smooth and fast. From what I've read that linux is
a little more picky about the hardwares condition than windows is. Then
the real test came. I bought the $75 Solaris 8 and it also installed.
Solaris is very picky about the hardware on x86s. Now I'm looking for a
low cost machine with ECC memory to reduce unnecessary o/s crashes. I
did have one older machine I cobbled together that used ECC memory and a
SCSI hard drive. I then put Win95 on it. It always ran without the
blue screen of death or any software lock ups during a three year usage.
(I always shutdown everyday.) So my research has led me to Texas
Instruments and am now looking for an old Gov. bulletin from National
Buruea of Standards concerning background radiation and memory cells in
semiconductor memories. As with most of the consumer PCs I've noticed
no ECC memories in these. Then I look at the more costly models (Above
$3000) and they do have ECC memories. I'm curious if anyone knows of a
log in linux or windows relating to hardware failures or problems like
the DEC VAX line had.
------------------------------
From: Matthew Gardiner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: KDE 2.1 oopsie!
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 18:00:16 +1200
Pete, I find it rather ammusing that a developer (which you claim you are), is
quite willing to dish out the shyte, yet, never make ANY effort to fix the
problem. Personally, I have very little programming skills, however, if I was
in your position I would have tracked the problem down (by looking at the crash
log), the search through the source code and mend the problem. But of course,
that would require a little grey matter and selflessness on your part. Oh, and
by the way, Knode is not the only news reader available for Linux, I have been
using Netscape Communicator 4.76 for a while now (and just recently, I now have
a Sun Blade 100), and have had no problems. No crashes, lock-ups, etc, so,
what you are saying, I would take with a truck of salt, because obviously, you
have no intention of actually using Linux as and OS, but to complain about
something you can actually fix!
Matthew Gardiner
Pete Goodwin wrote:
> mlw wrote:
>
> > So, knode crashed on you. Too bad, submit a bug report to the authors.
>
> I have.
>
> > Funny that you say there is a ways to go, because lets look at the
> > circumstances:
>
> I say that because a stable release ought not to be crashing 100% of the
> time.
>
> > Knode has worked for a long time, and this is your first problem with it.
> > Obviously not perfect, but clearly head and shoulders beyond anything on
> > Windows for stability, ala Outlook (aka LookOut!).
>
> Since I use "The Bat" and Internet Exploder on Windows, and avoid Outlook
> Express that's hardly a surprise.
>
> KNode was the best application I've used on Linux. To see it crashing was
> sad.
>
> > Did it crash your whole Linux machine?
>
> Nope. I got the KDE crash handler.
>
> > Could you restart the application without rebooting the system?
>
> I could, but it immediately crashed again. In fact, anything with a KDE
> style edit control would crash: Konqueror, KMail etc.
>
> > Besides, applications crash, that's what they are there for. A good OS
> > knows this and protects other applications from it, so that the other apps
> > can crash by their own means. Only on Linux, applications don't seem to
> > crash that often.
>
> I managed to get into a state where they would crash every time.
>
> Now, tonight, the crashing has gone away. I have changed _nothing_ so I
> can't explain this one.
>
> --
> Pete
> Running on SuSE 7.1
> All your fly zone are belong to us
------------------------------
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