Linux-Advocacy Digest #949, Volume #32 Tue, 20 Mar 01 21:13:05 EST
Contents:
Re: Unix/Linux Professionalism (GreyCloud)
Re: What is user friendly? ("Craig Oshima")
Re: Unix/Linux Professionalism (".")
Re: German armed forces ban MS software <gloat!> (Charles Lyttle)
Re: German armed forces ban MS software <gloat!> (Charles Lyttle)
Re: Stupid error message ("Paolo Ciambotti")
Re: uh oh, redhat is gonna do it (Albert)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: GreyCloud <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Unix/Linux Professionalism
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 17:57:44 -0800
"Aaron R. Kulkis" wrote:
>
> WesTralia wrote:
> >
> > "Aaron R. Kulkis" wrote:
> > >
> > > "." wrote:
> > > >
> > > > In comp.os.linux.advocacy Stephen S. Edwards II <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > > > Shades <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > > >
> > > > > 8<SNIP>8
> > > >
> > > > > First of all, Aaron R. Kulkis is considered a
> > > > > blithering idiot by both COLA and COMNA
> > > > > participants. Secondly, if you think that
> > > > > there are no irrational, childish, idiotic
> > > > > NT advocates, then you might want to lurk
> > > > > about on some of the various IRC nets.
> > > >
> > > > Actually, kulkis and chad meyers are almost exactly the same person.
>Substitute
> > > > "linux" for "windows" appropriately, and you absolutely cannot tell them
> > > > apart.
> > >
> > > Wrong.
> > >
> > > I know what the fuck I'm talking about. I have the university
> > > education AND the real-world experience to know what the fuck
> > > I'm talking about.
> >
> > You are wrong about YOUR university education. You never finished. You
>
> Are you implying that 100 credit hours of Mathematics, Chemistry,
> Physics, Electrical Engineering, Computer Science, and Computer
> Systems Engineering course work is not an education?
>
> When I was a *junior*, there were seniors who though I was a grad student
> because of my clear insight into, and ability to analyze advanced concepts.
>
> I completed the core curriculum with excellant grades.
>
> The only thing between me and a degree are some trivial elective
> courses....which, because I'm classified as a senior, I *MUST*
> take on campus (Purdue doesn't allow credit transfers for anybody
> classified as a senior).
>
> Now...why would i give up a couple THOUSAND dollars/week in income
> to go back to Indiana to sit around in a history lecture, in pursuit
> of a piece of paper that will benefit my productivity, usefulness,
> and employment.....not one iota.
>
> People hire me for my education in my core curriculum, which I
> *completed* with EXCELLANT grades, before running into financial
> problems.
>
> > are a high school graduate, nothing more, nothing less.
>
> Fine...I'm a high school graduate who is hired by Fortune 500
> companies into some of the most demanding technical slots...and
> leave because I get even MORE lucrative offers.
>
> Remember
>
> Diplomo != Education and Education != Diploma.
>
> I know many people who have a Diploma, but are still uneducated.
> I also know many people who have an education, despite the lack of
> a Diploma.
>
> None of which implies that a Diploma and an Education are mutually exclusive....
> it depends on the school.
For me its true. The Gov. sent me to college for certain course
materials and then continued to send me to many corporate schools on
classified equipment. When I was 18 I didn't have a dime and applied at
a gov. office. (Not the military) I spent time studying at Librascope
Corp, IBM, Sperry Rand, Raytheon, Iomega, Tektronix, HP,...
It never stopped till I retired. I asked the gov. what degree will they
give me?
They told me that the Gov. wasn't in the business in handing out
degrees.
> --
> Aaron R. Kulkis
> Unix Systems Engineer
> DNRC Minister of all I survey
> ICQ # 3056642
>
> K: Truth in advertising:
> Left Wing Extremists Charles Schumer and Donna Shelala,
> Black Seperatist Anti-Semite Louis Farrakan,
> Special Interest Sierra Club,
> Anarchist Members of the ACLU
> Left Wing Corporate Extremist Ted Turner
> The Drunken Woman Killer Ted Kennedy
> Grass Roots Pro-Gun movement,
>
> J: Other knee_jerk reactionaries: billh, david casey, redc1c4,
> The retarded sisters: Raunchy (rauni) and Anencephielle (Enielle),
> also known as old hags who've hit the wall....
>
> I: Loren Petrich's 2-week stubborn refusal to respond to the
> challenge to describe even one philosophical difference
> between himself and the communists demonstrates that, in fact,
> Loren Petrich is a COMMUNIST ***hole
>
> H: "Having found not one single carbon monoxide leak on the entire
> premises, it is my belief, and Willard concurs, that the reason
> you folks feel listless and disoriented is simply because
> you are lazy, stupid people"
>
> G: Knackos...you're a retard.
>
> F: Unit_4's "Kook hunt" reminds me of "Jimmy Baker's" harangues against
> adultery while concurrently committing adultery with Tammy Hahn.
>
> E: Jet is not worthy of the time to compose a response until
> her behavior improves.
>
> D: Jet Silverman now follows me from newgroup to newsgroup
> ...despite (C) above.
>
> C: Jet Silverman claims to have killfiled me.
>
> B: Jet Silverman plays the fool and spews out nonsense as a
> method of sidetracking discussions which are headed in a
> direction that she doesn't like.
>
> A: The wise man is mocked by fools.
--
V
------------------------------
Reply-To: "Craig Oshima" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
From: "Craig Oshima" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: What is user friendly?
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 17:34:10 -0800
"Aaron R. Kulkis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Craig Oshima wrote:
> >
> > You're missing my point...it's not whether *I* have a problem or find it
> > difficult. It's whether *normal users* find things hard or difficult.
If
> > Linux plans to be successful on normal user desktops, it's got to change
its
> > attitude about normal users and their needs.
>
> That's why we have more than 15 GUI's to choose from.
>
> Try them out, and use whatever you want.
Normal users are not likely to be excited by having 15 GUIs to choose from.
The adventurous might play with two or three. I doubt any more than 5%
would waste their time giving all 15 a test drive.
>
> Now...lowly ignorant one....you were born with two ears but only
> one mouth for a REASON...
>
> I suggest that you sit down and SHUT THE FUCK UP until you know
> what the hell you're talking about.
>
Most humans are born in that configuration, it's true. although you're
certainly setting yourself above most of us, so I guess it's possible you're
differently configured. But I have to take issue with your
suggestion...holding degrees in human factors engineering from "world-class
universities", and having ten years of experience in software development
and user interface design, I think it's fair to say that I know what the
hell I'm talking about. When YOU stop talking about how great Unix is or
how much Windows sucks, and start talking about what makes things good for
users, you have entered a different domain, Aaron. It has less to do with
technology and more to do with human psychology. But I'm not telling you to
sit down and shut up. All I want is for you to admit that you may not be the
expert about usability and what is best for everyone on the planet.
The fact that you are a talented engineer is a great gift...use it for good,
not for evil.
--
Craig Oshima
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
From: "." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Unix/Linux Professionalism
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 14:05:09 +1200
> > The world must be at least 80% dumbass.
>
> And encouraging the survival of dumbasses is beneficial how, exactly?
I'm not encouraging it. The dumbasses continue to prosper and expand,
despite my best attempts to thwart them.
Pretty soon, they'll start making operating systems that break all the time,
and due to the spread of their kind to positions of power (such as
management), it will be amazingly successful.
I'm pretty sure I stated my opinions on clueless users... that they can be
trained to use any system to get their work done.
Clueless user != reason to give them windows.
Another problem here is that clueless user != stupid user either. Clueless
user - user without knowledge of the system. Stupid user - monkey that
couldn't be trained to use a command line because it's beyond their mental
capacity.
------------------------------
From: Charles Lyttle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: German armed forces ban MS software <gloat!>
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 02:06:32 GMT
"Aaron R. Kulkis" wrote:
>
> Charles Lyttle wrote:
> >
> > "Aaron R. Kulkis" wrote:
> > >
> > > Charles Lyttle wrote:
> > > >
> > > > "Norman D. Megill" wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > In article
><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> > > > > GreyCloud <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > > > >"Aaron R. Kulkis" wrote:
> > > > > [snip]
> > > > > >> I would also bet that, if that is the case, that M$ is required to give
> > > > > >> the source to the Department of Defense in electronic form, AND give the
> > > > > >> military the right to modify the source code for their own internal use.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Yep, we do! When we purchased some VAXes we got source code,
> > > > > >schematics, the whole works. Same for microsoft stuff. Of course
> > > > > >agreements of non-disclosure and security protecting their proprietary
> > > > > >software were in place. After reviewing their source code all I can say
> > > > > >is that the mil. now calls it messy-dos!
> > > > >
> > > > > It is true that selected organizations can get Windows source code. But
> > > > > there is no way a few dozen or even a few hundred of the organization's
> > > > > programmers could do an adequate audit of the source code. There is
> > > > > simply too much source code. And what a waste; since the NDA prevents
> > > > > sharing, each organization must duplicate the effort of the others.
> > > > > Even Microsoft's entire body of programmers has demonstrated time and
> > > > > again that they allow serious security holes to slip through.
> > > > >
> > > > > There is no substitute for having thousands, possibly millions, of
> > > > > programmers around the world scrutinize open source code for security
> > > > > holes. Not even Microsoft's coffers can buy that kind of auditing.
> > > > >
> > > > > --Norm
> > > > And how do you verify that the code you got is the code that was used in
> > > > the build?
> > >
> > > Simple you idiot...****YOU***** COMPILE IT.
> > >
> > > Stupid little shithead...
> > >
> >
> > Some stupid shitheads think you can take 20million lines of code,
> > compile them with any two random compilers, using any 2 random
> > makefiles, on any 2 random machines and get identical binary files. It
> > don't work that way now and never has. Just today I tried that using
> > VC++ on NT and got different binaries.
>
> Good god, that's not the point.
>
> If you have the source code, and inspect it for back doors....you compile
> it AND USE the executables produced from the source code WHICH YOUR OWN
> PEOPLE HAVE VERIFIED.
>
> Only an idiot would trust a CD full of executables handed to them by
> a Microsoft rep in conjunction with another CD full of source code.
>
> In fact...I don't trust a damn thing produced by Microsoft.
>
> >
> > > > --
> > > > Russ Lyttle
> > > > "World Domination through Penguin Power"
> > > > The Universal Automotive Testset Project at
> > > > <http://home.earthlink.net/~lyttlec>
> > >
> > > --
> > > Aaron R. Kulkis
> > > Unix Systems Engineer
> > > DNRC Minister of all I survey
> > > ICQ # 3056642
> > >
> > >
> > --
> > Russ Lyttle
> > "World Domination through Penguin Power"
> > The Universal Automotive Testset Project at
> > <http://home.earthlink.net/~lyttlec>
>
> --
> Aaron R. Kulkis
> Unix Systems Engineer
> DNRC Minister of all I survey
> ICQ # 3056642
>
> K: Truth in advertising:
> Left Wing Extremists Charles Schumer and Donna Shelala,
> Black Seperatist Anti-Semite Louis Farrakan,
> Special Interest Sierra Club,
> Anarchist Members of the ACLU
> Left Wing Corporate Extremist Ted Turner
> The Drunken Woman Killer Ted Kennedy
> Grass Roots Pro-Gun movement,
>
> J: Other knee_jerk reactionaries: billh, david casey, redc1c4,
> The retarded sisters: Raunchy (rauni) and Anencephielle (Enielle),
> also known as old hags who've hit the wall....
>
> I: Loren Petrich's 2-week stubborn refusal to respond to the
> challenge to describe even one philosophical difference
> between himself and the communists demonstrates that, in fact,
> Loren Petrich is a COMMUNIST ***hole
>
> H: "Having found not one single carbon monoxide leak on the entire
> premises, it is my belief, and Willard concurs, that the reason
> you folks feel listless and disoriented is simply because
> you are lazy, stupid people"
>
> G: Knackos...you're a retard.
>
> F: Unit_4's "Kook hunt" reminds me of "Jimmy Baker's" harangues against
> adultery while concurrently committing adultery with Tammy Hahn.
>
> E: Jet is not worthy of the time to compose a response until
> her behavior improves.
>
> D: Jet Silverman now follows me from newgroup to newsgroup
> ...despite (C) above.
>
> C: Jet Silverman claims to have killfiled me.
>
> B: Jet Silverman plays the fool and spews out nonsense as a
> method of sidetracking discussions which are headed in a
> direction that she doesn't like.
>
> A: The wise man is mocked by fools.
Joseph Adams makes a good point in his post about trusting compilers.
But even so, the fact that I have the source to Linux and other
commercial operating systems does not do me much good security wise. The
security from open source is in the fact that thousands have looked at
the code over time. Someone would find deliberate backdoors. With MS, I
can't do a build and then a compare with a random sample from the market
to see if results match. They won't even if both are built from the same
code base. I would have to build my own distribution of everything : NT,
Office, Outlook, etc. I can't even hire a third party to do the builds
for me. Nondisclosure agreements prevent me from giving it to third
parties and even limit who in my organization can see the code.
With Linux, I can start with a reasonably secure code base and then
hire, say, RedHat or SusE to create a custom build with my security
enhancements. I can monitor the configuration management and build
process in detail. I can get all the disks I want burnt from my build
and insist that everyone in my organization use my one build.
--
Russ Lyttle
"World Domination through Penguin Power"
The Universal Automotive Testset Project at
<http://home.earthlink.net/~lyttlec>
------------------------------
From: Charles Lyttle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: German armed forces ban MS software <gloat!>
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 02:08:18 GMT
Jan Johanson wrote:
>
> "Charles Lyttle" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > "Norman D. Megill" wrote:
> > >
> > > In article
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> > > GreyCloud <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > >"Aaron R. Kulkis" wrote:
> > > [snip]
> > > >> I would also bet that, if that is the case, that M$ is required to
> give
> > > >> the source to the Department of Defense in electronic form, AND give
> the
> > > >> military the right to modify the source code for their own internal
> use.
> > > >
> > > >Yep, we do! When we purchased some VAXes we got source code,
> > > >schematics, the whole works. Same for microsoft stuff. Of course
> > > >agreements of non-disclosure and security protecting their proprietary
> > > >software were in place. After reviewing their source code all I can
> say
> > > >is that the mil. now calls it messy-dos!
> > >
> > > It is true that selected organizations can get Windows source code. But
> > > there is no way a few dozen or even a few hundred of the organization's
> > > programmers could do an adequate audit of the source code. There is
> > > simply too much source code. And what a waste; since the NDA prevents
> > > sharing, each organization must duplicate the effort of the others.
> > > Even Microsoft's entire body of programmers has demonstrated time and
> > > again that they allow serious security holes to slip through.
> > >
> > > There is no substitute for having thousands, possibly millions, of
> > > programmers around the world scrutinize open source code for security
> > > holes. Not even Microsoft's coffers can buy that kind of auditing.
> > >
> > > --Norm
> > And how do you verify that the code you got is the code that was used in
> > the build?
>
> Compile it - doh!
Did you mean "build" instead of "compile"? Do you understand the
difference?
--
Russ Lyttle
"World Domination through Penguin Power"
The Universal Automotive Testset Project at
<http://home.earthlink.net/~lyttlec>
------------------------------
From: "Paolo Ciambotti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Stupid error message
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 19:11:13 -0800
In article <PaNt6.13492$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
"Bob Nelson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Do you prefer this style of error message?
>
> - ``You don't exist, go away''
> - ``Not a typewriter''
> - ``Aiee!''
>
My personal favorite has to be "If you try this again, I'm going to tell
on you." (stderr from an older version of sudo, IIRC).
------------------------------
From: Albert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
alt.destroy.microsoft,soc.singles,alt.os.linux.redhat,comp.os.linux.redhat,linux.redhat
Subject: Re: uh oh, redhat is gonna do it
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 02:09:32 GMT
Steve Chaney wrote:
> On Tue, 20 Mar 2001 16:35:09 -0500, "Aaron R. Kulkis"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >Steve Chaney wrote:
> >>
> >> On Tue, 20 Mar 2001 19:57:05 GMT, T. Max Devlin
> >> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>
> >> >Said Steve Chaney in alt.destroy.microsoft on Tue, 20 Mar 2001 08:14:31
> >> >>I didn't know whether or not RedHat would try and boff the linux
> >> >>community up the back door, but it looks like they will try after all.
> >> >>
> >> >>Is RedHat making like a dog taking off at high speed and forgetting it
> >> >>is chained by the neck, or will it stop here? My bet is they are
> >> >>taking the first leaps in a quest to turn their version of Linux into
> >> >>a paid subscription product.
> >> >
> >> >An old and rather appropriate idea.
> >> >
> >> >>What am I talking about?
> >> >>http://www.redhat.com/products/network/service_changes.html
> >> >>(Credits: first seen on slashdot.org:
> >> >>http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/03/19/156208&mode=thread)
> >> >>
> >> >>A few excerpts from the FAQ page:
> >> >>"On February 26, 2001 Red Hat will be releasing Software Manager, our
> >> >>new software update management tool. Software Manager will replace the
> >> >>introductory Red Hat Network trial program, which will be ending that
> >> >>day."
> >> >>
> >> >>"Software Manager is a subscription offering priced at $19.95 per
> >> >>month for each system."
> >> > [...]
> >> >>Can we say manual updates? Well, at least for now, perhaps. But very
> >> >>soon they are likely to try and find a way to do away with this as
> >> >>well.
> >> >
> >> >You apparently lack the technical ability to understand why this is a
> >> >stupid statement. Not only is it unlikely, its an incomprehensible
> >> >idea.
> >>
> >> I call your bluff - why do you think it's a stupid idea?
> >> RedHat can't go far with this because of the GPL their product is
> >> licensed under.
> >
> >RedHat is merely charging for centralized, reliable CHANGE MANAGEMENT
> >of software upgrades.
>
> I hedged my bets on tis in my post. RedHat is free and clear to charge
> for support. My question was, will they try and charge for access to
> the software, period.
>
> >This relieves customers of much of the cost of maintaining test
> >machines and software migration testers....no time spent testing
> >software versions that aren't yet ready for prime-time....thus
> >lowering their in-house costs for such testing.
> >
> >For home users, who often can't afford to have a "test machine",
> >this is a very cheap thing. Also, if I were a RedHat home user,
> >I would just purchase the server for one month every 6 months.
>
> With over 300 gigs of HD space I can afford to create a second linux
> boot filesystem and launch it via LOADLIN.EXE. Boom! Test machine, 10
> seconds flat.
>
> In fact I did that when I ugpraded to Glibc 2.1.
>
> Of course, most people can't do that, and this method is senseless for
> a machine that requires close to 100% uptime.
>
> In any case, charging for SUPPORT is not a bad thing. I was asking how
> likely it is that they're trying to one day charge for the software
> (OS) itself.
>
> -- Steve
>
> ===============================
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] (remove the "-" to email me)
> This site is just TOO COOL for a counter! http://www.self-acceptance.org
> "As long as an enemy is judged solely by his
> appearance, his victory is assured." - Outer Limits
> STOP SMOKING NOW!!! ASK ME HOW!!! http://www.geocities.com/brenduh52/
> The alt.bonehead.jim-dutton FAQ @ http://www.best.com/~paladin/jjd-faq.shtml
> The Ramalamer fun page! http://www.best.com/~paladin/ramalane.shtml
Aren't they already charging for the OS through packaged CDs?
In any case, RedHat has every right to charge you for using a special service
that makes it somewhat easier to update and maintain systems. The fact is
though that many IT pros would like to have a copy of the update RPM in their
hands (or at least hard drives) as opposed to running RHN on every single
computer all at once, so I doubt they're going to eradicate manual updates. As
if that costs them a whole lot of money.
--
Albert
"It is only the wisest and stupidest that cannot change."
--Confucius
------------------------------
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