Linux-Advocacy Digest #949, Volume #34 Mon, 4 Jun 01 04:13:03 EDT
Contents:
Compiling Knews was: Linux beats Win2K (again) (Terry Porter)
Re: Windows makes good coasters ("Ayende Rahien")
Re: Windows makes good coasters ("Interconnect")
Re: What Microsoft's CEO should do (Ray Chason)
Re: Monolithic arch's SMP, and licenses... we're all over the place today! (Ray
Chason)
Re: UI Importance (Ray Chason)
Re: Windows makes good coasters ("Ayende Rahien")
Re: Monolithic arch's SMP, and licenses... we're all over the place today! ("Ayende
Rahien")
Chicken and egg problem ("Ayende Rahien")
Re: W2K/IIS proves itself over Linux/Tux (GreyCloud)
Re: Just when Linux starts getting good, Microsoft buries it in (GreyCloud)
Re: Monolithic arch's SMP, and licenses... we're all over the place today! ("Edward
Rosten")
Re: The beginning of the end for microsoft (GreyCloud)
Re: The beginning of the end for microsoft (GreyCloud)
Re: Why should an OS cost money? (Nick Condon)
Re: Why should an OS cost money? (Nick Condon)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Terry Porter)
Subject: Compiling Knews was: Linux beats Win2K (again)
Reply-To: No-Spam
Date: 04 Jun 2001 06:07:30 GMT
On Mon, 4 Jun 2001 04:00:17 +0200,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> drsquare <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
<snip>
>> No such thing on Agent. You can specify author or subject. Not both.
>
> Well as you like Linux so much use knews (nothing to do with KDE). It can
> do what you want and much more and it's all done within the GUI.
Following your suggestion I d/l and installed Knews, to try it out. I also
timed the operation, so people can see how long it takes.
14:34 ... d/l Knews
14:37 ...
set options (news server etc), and compile the source
14:51 ...
error main.c:138 parse error before '/'
oops I didnt remove the "*/" at the end of one config line!
fix it
14:54 compile again
14:59 finished compile, install
done!
25 minutes including a stupid error by me.
Enter "knews" in a xterm, and :-
Knews then d/l all newsgroups from my server, this takes a while
as usual.
When finished I see a nice GUI news reader, functional and readable
tho its threading is unreadable on my display as the thread boxes
are too big.
I can't see a way to impliment scorefiles immediately like slrn,
tho Knews seems infinitely configurable, there may be a way.
Back to Slrn for now, as I've really grown so used to it, I just
don't want anything else:)
--
Kind Regards
Terry
--
**** ****
My Desktop is powered by GNU/Linux.
1972 Kawa Mach3, 1974 Kawa Z1B, .. 15 more road bikes..
Current Ride ... a 94 Blade
Free Micro burner: http://jsno.downunder.net.au/terry/
** Registration Number: 103931, http://counter.li.org **
------------------------------
From: "Ayende Rahien" <don'[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Windows makes good coasters
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 09:10:43 +0200
"Terry Porter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> On Mon, 4 Jun 2001 08:21:14 +0200, Ayende Rahien <don'[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Do you mean GCC?
>
> Opps, yes I do mean Gcc.
In this case, there is a whole slew of free compilers for Windows.
> > I use SmartFTP (get it from SmartFTP.com)
>
> Eeks thats the one I *don't* like!
Why?
(I like gathering information about why people don't like programs, help
preventing doing the same mistakes)
> > They got a little overboard with the visual affects, but it's a very
good
> > program nonetheless.
>
> Interestingly I just wanted something like the Linux 'gftp' which has less
> visual effects than SmartFTP, but is so easy to use!
>
> It may be a matter of personal preference ?
Probably.
You *could* use explorer, I suppose.
But it isn't really that good as an FTP client.
http://download.cnet.com/1,10150,0-10064-106-0-1-1,00.html?filterQuery=true&;
os=&li=2
List 48 free FTP clients ( and a word processor, for some reason :-D )
FTP Explorer seems to be good
http://download.cnet.com/downloads/0-10064-100-869478.html?tag=st.dl.10064-1
06-1.lst-1-21.869478
------------------------------
From: "Interconnect" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.linux.sux,alt.linux,comp.os.
Subject: Re: Windows makes good coasters
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 16:28:25 +1000
drsquare <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> On Sat, 02 Jun 2001 23:43:57 GMT, in comp.os.linux.advocacy,
> ([EMAIL PROTECTED] (Bob Hauck)) wrote:
>
> >On Sat, 02 Jun 2001 19:28:01 GMT, Jonas Due Vesterheden
> ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >> In article <9fbdk1$5mf$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Ian Pegel wrote:
> >
> >> > I'm kind of new to Linux, I like what I see so far - my only
> >> > reservation is leaving apps like Dreamweaver and Photoshop behind.
> >
> >> Have you tried the alternatives to these programs?
>
> >The de-facto Photoshop alternative for Linux would be GIMP. Most
> >distros seem to come with it.
>
> But it's nowhere near as good as PSP
Well it depends on what you want it to do isn't it?
I know you can't do screen capture with PSP but with GIMP it's a piece of
cake.
------------------------------
From: Ray Chason <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: What Microsoft's CEO should do
Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 06:21:46 -0000
daniel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Apparently some parties at the company believe that it helps their
>company to severly limit their products' capacity to interoperate with
>other platforms, such as with Linux. As simple example of this is the
>fact that from a Windows machine you cannot access an ext2 filesystem
>without a 3rd party application like Explore2fs, while with Linux most
>stock kernels are compiled out of the box with FAT and VFAT support
>and go so far as to set up an fstab entry to automatically mount a FAT
>or VFAT filesystem each time the system runs.
I've read the documentation for the Win98 Driver Development Kit. It,
and the DDK itself, are an unholy mess. The information needed to
create a file system driver is scattered in a hundred different places.
On top of that, the bindings described in the documentation simply are
not there.
If the documentation were written to be understood, and if the bindings
worked properly, perhaps there might be an ext2 file system driver for
Win98. Somebody wrote one for OS/2; it used a lot of code from the
Linux driver and some interesting hacks to get 32-bit code in an OS/2
driver.
--
--------------===============<[ Ray Chason ]>===============--------------
PGP public key at http://www.smart.net/~rchason/pubkey.asc
Delenda est Windoze
------------------------------
From: Ray Chason <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Monolithic arch's SMP, and licenses... we're all over the place today!
Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 06:26:09 -0000
"Stephen S. Edwards II" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>I don't dislike gcc, either. I think it's a great
>tool, and I use it under NetBSD (SCO's compiler is
>also pretty handy). I'm just wary of others trying
>to tell me what I have to, or even should, do with
>my work, and that is the crux of my skepticism
>regarding the GPL. If proprietizing one's own
>exclusive work (read, no reused code whatsoever)
>with gcc is geniunely a violation of the GPL, or
>even merely against the spirit of the GPL, then it
>should be rewritten to clearly state that, IMHO.
This is unclear. Are you under the impression that binaries compiled
with gcc fall under the GPL? They don't, not unless you link with a
GPL'd library; and even glibc carries an amendment to the GPL so that
no GPLish terms are invoked merely from linking to the library.
I cannot name even a single development tool that brings your work
under the GPL simply because you used the tool to process your work.
This used to be true of Bison, but Bison now carries an exception to
the GPL so that this is no longer true.
--
--------------===============<[ Ray Chason ]>===============--------------
PGP public key at http://www.smart.net/~rchason/pubkey.asc
Delenda est Windoze
------------------------------
From: Ray Chason <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: UI Importance
Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 06:28:07 -0000
"Interconnect" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Hey! Emacs is cool. It even gives you *some* syntax highlighting.
Ever try vim?
--
--------------===============<[ Ray Chason ]>===============--------------
PGP public key at http://www.smart.net/~rchason/pubkey.asc
Delenda est Windoze
------------------------------
From: "Ayende Rahien" <don'[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.linux.sux,alt.linux,comp.os.
Subject: Re: Windows makes good coasters
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 09:31:17 +0200
"Interconnect" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:9ff92m$ksi$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> drsquare <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > On Sat, 02 Jun 2001 23:43:57 GMT, in comp.os.linux.advocacy,
> > ([EMAIL PROTECTED] (Bob Hauck)) wrote:
> >
> > >On Sat, 02 Jun 2001 19:28:01 GMT, Jonas Due Vesterheden
> > ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > >> In article <9fbdk1$5mf$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Ian Pegel wrote:
> > >
> > >> > I'm kind of new to Linux, I like what I see so far - my only
> > >> > reservation is leaving apps like Dreamweaver and Photoshop behind.
> > >
> > >> Have you tried the alternatives to these programs?
> >
> > >The de-facto Photoshop alternative for Linux would be GIMP. Most
> > >distros seem to come with it.
> >
> > But it's nowhere near as good as PSP
>
> Well it depends on what you want it to do isn't it?
> I know you can't do screen capture with PSP but with GIMP it's a piece of
> cake.
Why would you want to use PSP to do a screen capture? Windows will do it for
you automatically.
------------------------------
From: "Ayende Rahien" <don'[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Monolithic arch's SMP, and licenses... we're all over the place today!
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 09:32:10 +0200
"Ray Chason" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in
message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> "Stephen S. Edwards II" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >I don't dislike gcc, either. I think it's a great
> >tool, and I use it under NetBSD (SCO's compiler is
> >also pretty handy). I'm just wary of others trying
> >to tell me what I have to, or even should, do with
> >my work, and that is the crux of my skepticism
> >regarding the GPL. If proprietizing one's own
> >exclusive work (read, no reused code whatsoever)
> >with gcc is geniunely a violation of the GPL, or
> >even merely against the spirit of the GPL, then it
> >should be rewritten to clearly state that, IMHO.
>
> This is unclear. Are you under the impression that binaries compiled
> with gcc fall under the GPL? They don't, not unless you link with a
> GPL'd library; and even glibc carries an amendment to the GPL so that
> no GPLish terms are invoked merely from linking to the library.
>
> I cannot name even a single development tool that brings your work
> under the GPL simply because you used the tool to process your work.
> This used to be true of Bison, but Bison now carries an exception to
> the GPL so that this is no longer true.
There is the free version of Kylix
------------------------------
From: "Ayende Rahien" <don'[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Chicken and egg problem
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 09:40:05 +0200
http://joel.editthispage.com/stories/storyReader$117
Read it, very good article about how to get people to use new platforms.
I was especially impressed by this:
"Windows 95? No problem. Nice new 32 bit API, but it still ran old 16 bit
software perfectly. Microsoft obsessed about this, spending a big chunk of
change testing every old program they could find with Windows 95. Jon Ross,
who wrote the original version of SimCity for Windows 3.x, told me that he
accidentally left a bug in SimCity where he read memory that he had just
freed. Yep. It worked fine on Windows 3.x, because the memory never went
anywhere. Here's the amazing part: On beta versions of Windows 95, SimCity
wasn't working in testing. Microsoft tracked down the bug and *added
specific code to Windows 95 that looks for SimCity*. If it finds SimCity
running, it runs the memory allocator in a special mode that doesn't free
memory right away. That's the kind of obsession with backward compatibility
that made people willing to upgrade to Windows 95."
------------------------------
From: GreyCloud <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: W2K/IIS proves itself over Linux/Tux
Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 00:23:45 -0700
The Ghost In The Machine wrote:
>
> In comp.os.linux.advocacy, GreyCloud
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote
> on Thu, 17 May 2001 17:46:26 -0700
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> >Matthew Gardiner wrote:
> >>
> >> > It seems that Cal. isn't the only state having troubles with black outs.
> >> > We're starting to see some server farms drop off the net for a while
> >> > because the server farms aren't being told a rolling black out is
> >> > coming.
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > V
> >>
> >> Why not build more power plants? New Zealand is already building
> >> two more power plants to handle the ever increasing demand.
> >> 70-80% of power is from hydro, and the rest is from Geothermal,
> >> Coal, and Gas fired plants. Up at the garbage dump there is
> >> a small power plant running off the methane produced from the
> >> rubbish dump, so, maybe California should setup one of those
> >> outside Microsoft to capture all the crap that they produced.
> >>
> >> Matthew Gardiner
> >
> >Power Plants?? We can't because all the environmentalists won't allow
> >it. They don't like logging either. Sure hope they don't miss their
> >toilet paper.
>
> Would hand-pumped bidets work? :-)
>
HEhehehe.... of course they would ... as long as some one else is doing
the pumping. :-)
------------------------------
From: GreyCloud <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Just when Linux starts getting good, Microsoft buries it in
Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 00:30:06 -0700
JS \\ PL wrote:
>
> "GreyCloud" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > Rotten168 wrote:
> > >
> > > GreyCloud wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Rotten168 wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > drsquare wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Fri, 01 Jun 2001 13:21:24 GMT, in comp.os.linux.advocacy,
> > > > > > (Rotten168 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>) wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >"Aaron R. Kulkis" wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >> Considering that X predates the Logitech trackball by a full
> decade,
> > > > > > >> I suggest you ask Logitech why they are selling a trackball
> that is
> > > > > > >> incompatible with X.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >*sigh* Why not ask X why they're still stuck in 1990? Either way,
> if
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Why should X change just because a few people seem to find it too
> > > > > > difficult to press the left and right buttons at the same time?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >Linux wants to remain competitive on the desktop it will have to
> do
> > > > > > >better than this. I read an article a while back on how each OS
> should
> > > > > > >just stick to their respective markets, and we'd all be better.
> Windows
> > > > > > >should stick to the desktop (where it does a better job than
> Linux), and
> > > > > > >UNIXens should stick to servers, workstations, routers, ... all
> the
> > > > > > >industrial-strength stuff.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > What, you're saying normal users shouldn't be given the option of
> a
> > > > > > stable operating system?
> > > > >
> > > > > Well... no I'm not saying that, but Windows is easier on the eyes,
> it's
> > > > > more user-friendly (whatever that means nowadays), it's got a faster
> > > > > redraw rate than Linux. It's easier to do do "stuff" with. The
> tradeoff
> > > > > is that it locks up every few uses or so.
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm not saying Linux is a bad OS, it's just not a good desktop OS,
> > > > > delivering more power (and, yes, stability) than the average user
> needs
> > > > > and sacrificing speed, ease of use, and aesthetics.
> > > >
> > > > I couldn't call Win9.x series a good desktop. You should see the kick
> > > > and scuff marks on the side of my wifes' computer! Starts a print
> > > > process and halfway thru it locks up the whole system. Call that a
> good
> > > > O/S??
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > V
> > >
> > > Again... if you said the same thing about Linux, the people in here
> > > would blame it on poor administration. How sure are you that it's
> > > Windows 98' fault, because my experiences with Linux & printing are
> > > worse than what my experiences were with Windows. I once tried to print
> > > the man pages for tin, I didn't realize that they were like 50 pages
> > > long! I cancelled the job using the lp kill command (I forget what it's
> > > called exactly), but the printer continued printing after I rebooted.
> > >
> >
> > It could be a Win98 fault in the print manager for the HP970. She had an
> > Epson 600 on it before and it never froze up because Epson had the
> > presence of mind to write their own print manager and bypassed windows
> > print manager all together. There are some other programs that deal
> > with photo graphics... one crashes once in a while and the other (Adobe
> > 3.0 for business) that freezes the system on startup. The print manager
> > in windows freezing up is an intermittent problem without any ryhme or
> > reason to it.
> > Then I installed, for a while Linux on her HP and it worked flawlessly
> > and had no printing problems. But, she wanted to play on Bridge Zone
> > and it rejected her saying "You need Windows to play" so I had to
> > re-install windows back on her HP. Same old problems.
>
> I don't get it? Sounds to me more like the Epson 600, in their presence of
> mind probably stomped all over Windows system files with their own print
> manager, thus, breaking it for all other printers.
>
> Why didn't you just instruct the Linux browser to send a fake userAgent to
> the Bridge Zone?
>
> Admit it, you wife took one look at "K" this and "K" that and said get this
> shit off my computer!
Not at all in regards to Kde... The bridgezone has to download MS
designed software as the display of the bridge table and cards and
such... I even tried to get in on Solaris and it immediately told me
that the downloadable files only work for windows. She just has a lot
of friends there is all.
The Epson didn't stomp all over windows files... it just bypassed the
windows print manager. Windows print manage (win98) is really slow to
respond to user requests to quit a job... hence HPs new button on their
printer (CANCEL PRINT). Under anyother o/s it's not a problem to cancel
a print job immediately. Epson knew this and wrote their own.
--
V
------------------------------
From: "Edward Rosten" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Monolithic arch's SMP, and licenses... we're all over the place today!
Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 09:44:04 +0100
> I've been hoping to get some time to mess around with FreeBSD's SMP
> implementation. Anyone have any info as to how well such monolithic
> architectures scale on multiple processors? Unfortunately, NetBSD
> doesn't support multiple processors yet.
Linux 2.4 is meant to scale up to 64 procseeors, but I don't have a handy
64 way SMP machine to test to on :-(
I don't know if ti has been tested yet on that many procs. Mabey someone
can provide a link?
> I don't dislike gcc, either. I think it's a great tool, and I use it
> under NetBSD (SCO's compiler is also pretty handy). I'm just wary of
> others trying to tell me what I have to, or even should, do with my
> work, and that is the crux of my skepticism regarding the GPL.
I disagree. In many ways the GPL is as draconian as many closed licenses.
Essentially, you can't make any use of GPL code if the result isn't GPL.
I think it is fair enough that poeple could want their code never to be
in a closed source application. Just think, if you seccesfully decompiled
Windows, you couldn't use the code in anything else, even if it was only
10 lines in a 5e6 line application.
My opinion on it is that if people wish their stuff never to become
closed in any way, they should be granted that wish, and it should be
respected.
> If
> proprietizing one's own exclusive work (read, no reused code whatsoever)
> with gcc is geniunely a violation of the GPL, or even merely against the
> spirit of the GPL, then it should be rewritten to clearly state that,
> IMHO.
I believe it is OK to create closed apps with the GPL, but I'd agree that
most stuff written with GPL is either open source or internal programs
for a copmpany.
> I'm still a novice programmer, and I'm in the process of going back to
> my University to pursue a master's degree in CompSci (after I finish
> taking the deficiency courses). I'm starting my curriculum this fall,
good luck.
> but I'm trying to get the basics down ala O'Reilly. I'd like to learn
> on and possibly standardize on gcc in the future, but not if it means
> that I will be stuck in a license that I cannot fully agree to.
I don't see how the license is any worse than a closed one: just don't
use any of the source like you wouldn't with a closed one.
>> When you add mingw32 into the mix, you can even write Win32 code with
>> it. You can build it as a cross-compiler, too.
>
> Or, you could also use Cygwin32. Some people like it quite a bit, but
> I've heard others complain that it's too limited in many ways. I must
> admit, using bash under WindowsNT does feel a bit awkward. I prefer the
> VDM under NT.
VDM?
> Speaking of Stallman, anyone else hear about IBM and Sony's plans a
> while back for creating a new ATA spec, where operations on copyrighted
> material could be restricted in hardware? I haven't heard anything
> about it lately, so I wonder if it fell by the wayside.
IIRC, the members left te consortium one by one as they realised their
products wouldn't fly with the rest of the civilised world.
> Still, it sounds a little spooky. If it ever does come to fruition, you
> can bet I'll be using SCSI exclusively. I've got plenty of goats to
> sacrifice.
IMO, the extra cost will be more than worth it in this case.
-Ed
--
(You can't go wrong with psycho-rats.) (u98ejr)(@)(ecs.ox)(.ac.uk)
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r 230 350 moveto 0 1 179{2 1 r dup show 2 1 r 88 rotate 4 mul 0 rmoveto}for/s 15
d f pop 240 420 moveto 0 1 3 {4 2 1 r sub -1 r show}for showpage
------------------------------
From: GreyCloud <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.arch,misc.invest.stocks
Subject: Re: The beginning of the end for microsoft
Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 00:45:12 -0700
Michael Vester wrote:
>
> Peter da Silva wrote:
> >
> > In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> > Burkhard =?iso-8859-1?Q?W=F6lfel?=
><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > I called the support hotline of my distro (SuSE) once.
> > > -they didnt have one of those expensive "0180"-lines, as most
> > > commercial hotlines in Germany do.
> > > -they told me that my ditribution was out of date and so was my right
> > > for support. Then they helped me solve my problems and asked me not to
> > > call again.
> > > I was amazed.
> >
> > > Did anyone have such an experience with a Microsuffe'd helpline? Ben?
> >
> > The first time I called a Microsoft support line (right after installing my
> > first NT server), they gave me bad advice that took my whole NT domain down
> > and then asked for a credit card number before they'd help me fix it, because
> > I'd already used up my free calls. I managed to get them to call me back with
> > an actual competant tech by escalating the problem up a few levels... but by
> > then it was a week later and I'd already solved the problem by asking Usenet.
> >
> My experiences has all been bad. I have worked in tech support and has
> access to a "pay through the nose" tech support line.
>
> "Are you running non Microsoft software?"
> If yes, then go to the company that produced the software for help.
> "Did you reboot?"
> If yes then
> "Did you reinstall?"
> If yes then
> "You have a hardware problem, go bother the manufacturer"
>
> After a few calls like this, I realized that I was much more intelligent
> than any person on the other end of the telephone. The solution was,
> "Don't waste anymore time using Microsoft's tech support!" Most problems
> can be resolved with the web, usenet and mail lists. I find that the
> Linux community is much more helpful.
When I called MS up for support on win98 a while back, I had the product
for over 90 days. They asked for Credit Card number and I said I don't
give that over the phone.
I then asked if they knew of a good internet based forum for Win98....
(silence...) A supervisor got on line and asked what he could do for
me... I got my answer by inferring that they didn't know anything by
asking for an alternative source of answers.
Sometimes it works.
------------------------------
From: GreyCloud <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.arch,misc.invest.stocks
Subject: Re: The beginning of the end for microsoft
Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 00:47:58 -0700
Michael Vester wrote:
>
> Peter da Silva wrote:
> >
> > In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> > Michael Vester <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > "Are you running non Microsoft software?"
> > > If yes, then go to the company that produced the software for help.
> > > "Did you reboot?"
> > > If yes then
> > > "Did you reinstall?"
> > > If yes then
> > > "You have a hardware problem, go bother the manufacturer"
> >
> > Surely you exxagerate. It hasn't been that bad for me on the free support
> > line, except for that one appalling mistake. I haven't needed any extensive
> > handholding, though... just stupid Windows Newbie mistakes.
> >
> > Of course this was all in the NT 3.51 era. It may have gotten worse since
> > then.
> >
> It was in the 3.51 era. My PHB had to have the most heavily loaded
> workstation in the company, running NT 3.51 of course. Another example was
> our Dec Alpha running 3.51 freezing after 20 people logged in. We had a
> Dec guy in for that one. Microsoft gave him the "Its not us, its your
> hardware" answer. The Dec was unusable and was junked. Even had two MSCE's
> throw themselves at it for 3 months. My bosses loaded machine was fixed by
> removing some of the peripherals and moving them to another computer. My
> solution.
>
> Crappie tech support is not limited to Microsoft. Personally, I don't
> bother with any company's tech support. I can discover than solution in
> less time than waiting on hold.
That is pretty much my opinion as well. You should hear Suns' tech
support line...
They couldn't even get me hooked up to the internet, and found the
www.kempston.com site on how to hook up to the net.
I bugged them about it good too.... pestered sales and said the forgot
the dot in dot-com.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Nick Condon)
Subject: Re: Why should an OS cost money?
Date: 4 Jun 2001 07:53:18 GMT
Erik Funkenbusch wrote:
>"Nick Condon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
>news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>> Erik Funkenbusch wrote:
>> >"Nick Condon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
>> >> Tech support does and should cost money, so does media. However,
>> >> the question is why should an *OS* cost money? You can get an OS
>> >> without incurring media or tech support costs. They are three
>> >> seperate things.
>> >
>> >In a model where you can download the OS for free and only recieve
>> >support if you pay per incident or boxed set you get people that buy
>> >one copy, then install 100, then use the single paid-for copies
>> >support for the other issues they run into in the other copies.
>> >People simply aren't honest enough for such a model to work.
>>
>> Selling boxed sets is a way of covering the cost of the media. The
>> retail price of box-plus-manual covers the costs of making them.
>
>No, retail boxed sets also include installation support.
Hmm ... knee-jerk responses to key phrases ... no understanding of context
... no understanding of argument. Has someone replaced Erik with an Eliza
program?
Hello, Erik, how are you feeling?
--
Nick
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Nick Condon)
Subject: Re: Why should an OS cost money?
Date: 4 Jun 2001 07:55:44 GMT
Ayende Rahien wrote:
>"Nick Condon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
>> Very little of the world's software is developed for resale. Most -
>perhaps
>> 95% - of the world's software is developed in-house for it's use-value
>> and licensing is non-issue. Don't believe me? Take a look any
>> publication that advertises vacancies for developers. How many of them
>> are software houses? Maybe 1 in 20. Most of them are financial
>> institutions.
>
>That is closer to 80%, I would say.
>And most of the revenue on software is made from resale.
So in other words, most of the money made in selling software comes from
selling software? <sigh>
--
Nick
------------------------------
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