Linux-Advocacy Digest #754, Volume #33 Sat, 21 Apr 01 13:13:09 EDT
Contents:
Re: Perl and Tcl/Tk: How important are they? (Chad Everett)
Re: What's the point (Chad Everett)
Re: Why do Win advocates suck? Part 1 ("Osugi Sakae")
Re: Blame it all on Microsoft (GreyCloud)
Re: Communism, Communist propagandists in the US...still..to this day. (GreyCloud)
Re: Why do Win advocates suck? Part 1 (Chad Everett)
Re: Red Hat has become scary? (Chad Everett)
Re: Why do Win advocates suck? Part 1 ("Gary Hallock")
Re: What's the point (Andres Soolo)
Re: Ctrl-Alt-Windows ("Chad Myers")
Re: Tired of XEMACS, moving to VIM ("Edward Rosten")
Re: Aaron Kuklis Arrested! (The Ghost In The Machine)
Re: Another story regarding XP and the dreaded Subscription model: (The Ghost In The
Machine)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Chad Everett)
Subject: Re: Perl and Tcl/Tk: How important are they?
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: 21 Apr 2001 09:56:45 -0500
On Sat, 21 Apr 2001 08:34:45 -0400, Aaron R. Kulkis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>>
>> "Aaron R. Kulkis" wrote:
>> >
>> > Michael Vester wrote:
>> > >
>> > > "Bryant Charleston, MCSE" wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > Hey folks,
>> > > >
>> > > > I'm a Linux newbie and I'm reading through a few books and practicing
>> > > > hands-on to learn Linux -- then Unix. A couple of the books spend quite a
>> > > > bit of time addressing scripting languages like Perl and Tcl/Tk. As a newbie
>> > > > to Linux, I'd like to get some feedback on how important these (or any
>> > > > other) scripting languages are in the real world.
>> > > >
>> > > > 1) Should I skip these and continue to learn and master the basic CLI
>> > > > commands FIRST, or learn them along w/the CLI?
>> > >
>> > > Do you mean the shell? There are several included with every Linux
>> > > distribution.
>> > >
>> > > > 2) Which of these scripting languages are the most important?
>> > >
>> > > Depends on what you are doing. I invested time in learning Perl. It can do
>> > > anything the shell and much, much more. Also, Perl is on just about every
>> > > Unix/Linux system out there. Start at www.cpan.org
>> >
>> > Not in the commercial world. Also, there is a version problem with perl.
>> > I can't remember where the cutoff is, but there's a backwards compatibility
>> > problem (perl 4.x vs perl 5.x ???)
>> >
>> > In any event, anywhere you go, basic shell scripts are the foundation level
>> > (all of your system initialization is done in bourne-shell scripts).
>> >
>> > Therefore, learning shell scripting is a higher priority than perl scripting.
>> >
>> > in fact, I'm a *HIGHLY* paid, high-responsibility admin, and I've only
>> > had to deal with perl once, and never really did get the hang of it.
>> >
>> > Everywhere else, perl just adds confusion, because it's no universally known.
>> > Which leads to a chicken-and-the-egg problem.
>> >
>>
>> perl does take a bit of getting used to, but it can be kind of handy.
>
>I don't doubt it.
>
>I'm just saying that you can work on Unix systems for DECADES without ever
>needing it.
>
>I've been using Unix since 1983. Only touched perl for a grand total of
>less than a week in that entire time.
>
>
But you are an administrator and not a programmer or engineer, despite
what your sig says. If you were a programmer or engineer using Unix
as tool for engineering or programming (as in producing engineering
or computational solutions), you would end up needed more that just
Unix scripts pretty quickly (PERL, Python, Tcl/Tk, Java, C, C++, Fortran,
etc. and these days MPI, etc.)
>
>
>> For example, if you have deal with windows machines and macs, perl is
>> very good for messing with text formats to pass between the machines.
>
>
>That's only because Windows and Macs are so utterly deficient of
>quality file-manipulation tools in the first place
>
>>
>> --
>> http://www.guild.bham.ac.uk/chess-club
>
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Chad Everett)
Subject: Re: What's the point
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: 21 Apr 2001 09:58:32 -0500
On Sat, 21 Apr 2001 03:19:20 -0500, Erik Funkenbusch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>"GreyCloud" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
>news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>> Erik Funkenbusch wrote:
>> >
>> > "Roy Culley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
>> > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>> > > > When talking about your file system, there shouldn't be *ANY* bugs.
>MS
>> > is
>> > > > very loathe to make changes to it's file system, and when it does,
>it
>> > spends
>> > > > eons testing them. FAT32 started testing before Windows 95 came
>out,
>> > but
>> > > > didn't actually appear in a product until nearly 2 years later.
>> > > >
>> > > > Any possible bug in your filesystem should scare the living hell out
>of
>> > you.
>> > > > One bug can corrupt your entire disk.
>> > >
>> > > You really are an obstreperous bastard. The reason why reiserfs was
>> > > not incorporated into the first 2.4.0 release was not because of bugs.
>> >
>> > Really? Explain why 2.4.2 has a Reiserfs bug fixed.
>> >
>> > Explain why 2.4.3 has not zero, not one, but THREE bugs regarding the
>> > Reiserfs fixed?
>> >
>> > Explain why 2.4.4 pre-4 has a Reiserfs bug fixed in it so far.
>> >
>> > > SuSE, a major contributor to reiserfs development, has been using it
>> > > on their servers for a long time. They have provided it with their
>> > > distributions for a long time. On the SuSE mailing list many people
>> > > would ask if reiserfs is stable enough. SuSE people themselves replied
>> > > saying they used it on servers with huge partitions and that it was
>> > > rock solid.
>> >
>> > It may be "rock solid" in the vast majority of circumstances, but you
>can't
>> > predict when you will become the exception to the rule.
>> >
>> > > To say that MS is loath to release critical software
>> > > before doing eons of testing has to be one of the biggest jokes
>> > > ever. MS hasn't given a toss about quality until the Internet became a
>> > > big thing. They are now producing a fairly reliable operating system
>> > > but only after the huge embarrassment of so many bugs being made
>> > > public via the Internet.
>> >
>> > MS's file systems have always been rock solid. They take the file
>system as
>> > a very important piece of the puzzle.
>>
>> Oh Really?? Then why do you have run scandisk all the time before doing
>> a defrag??
>
>That's not a bug, its a precaution.
>
>> Why does this have to be done once a week at least to keep things on an
>> even keel??
>
>I haven't done it in recent memory on my 98 machine.. at least 9 months..
>maybe a year.
>
>> Looks like some bugs to me.
>
>Not bugs at all. Why do you have to fsck after a improper shutdown, is that
>a bug too?
>
Oh please. Be realistic. Go to www.microsoft.com and do a search for
'filesystem' or 'FAT32' in their "knowledge" base. Are you really trying
to tell us the results you get aren't bugs?
------------------------------
From: "Osugi Sakae" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Why do Win advocates suck? Part 1
Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 00:18:53 +0900
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
In article <lv9E6.44884$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "pookoopookoo"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
[snip]
> I use Staroffice 5.2 also btw. It's great (for those rare times when I
> actually need an office suite). What the guy said isn't FUD, it's the
> god's honest truth. For a regular joe user, Linux is useless. It's great
> for programmers, but that's about all. If you want to get some R&R or do
> any kind of design-related jobbie, linux is sort of a dead end. Also,
> I'm not sure why they call win98 bloatware, when my Mandrake 7.2 install
> took up almost a gig and a half.
Umm, certainly you realize that your Mandrake install included a lot of
stuff that a windows install does not provide? A lot of MS's stuff is
called bloatware because it is large _for what it does_ (or, in the case
of MS office, for what the majority of users do with it). Most home users
would not need to install any other program after they install Mandrake.
Software to do everything that 80% (a guess) of the computing population
does with their computers can be installed along with the OS. This is
simply not the case with Windows. Unless the typical home user enjoys
notepad.
Name one thing that Joe Home User, given a preconfigured linux box,
cannot do. Aside from play specific games, why is linux useless? It comes
with office suites, media players, lots of email programs, lots of games,
icq clients, irc clients, pdf viewers, web browsers, etc, etc, etc.
> It's ok in an office environment though, if office work is all it's
> going to be doing. Linux is a really good turnkey OS but not great at
> doing many varied things.
Lets see, linux can handle my digital camera, by 3d games, the occasional
movie trailer, my document creation and formatting needs, my personal
finance needs, my mp3 collection. And all that programmer and internet
services stuff.
Where exactly was linux lacking again? What many varied things can't it
do? Oh, yes, run specific software compiled specifically for the windows
platform? Can windows run Linux software? I would love to be able to use
WindowMaker on the Windows pc i am forced to use at work. Can it run Mac
software? Can windows even understand the mac file system (say on a
floppy disk)? Didn't think so.
Try this on for size: many companies do not release their software for
linux because they know that there is already similar software available
for linux for free. This similar software does 80% to 90% of what their
expensive software does, so only a few people would bother spending the
money. So the company (quite rightly) decides not to spend money porting
the software. Better to stay in the land of milk and honey, where the
sheep have no other options and are used to the idea of paying through
the nose for software.
I ain't saying that the above is correct, just that it is a possibility.
--
Osugi Sakae
====== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News ======
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
======= Over 80,000 Newsgroups = 16 Different Servers! ======
------------------------------
From: GreyCloud <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Blame it all on Microsoft
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 01:02:54 -0700
AG wrote:
>
> > > Windows. Then, as groups of users become less and less dependent on
> > > M$-only software, you can move some of them over to Linux boxes
> >
> > FreeBSD, actually.
> >
>
> Ummm, why not VMS?
:-) I'm still waiting to recieve a VAX 4000. Its small enough to fit
into my small space and gives me what I need... Peace of mind. Gave up
a while back on trying to program windows. Even tho I have Solaris 8, I
prefer VMS.
--
V
------------------------------
From: GreyCloud <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Communism, Communist propagandists in the US...still..to this day.
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 01:17:19 -0700
Matthew Gardiner wrote:
>
> GreyCloud wrote:
> >
> > Matthew Gardiner wrote:
> > >
> > > <snype>
> > >
> > > Think of the issue like this. We are now in the era of technological
> > > change, yet we still rely on technology 100 years old that has changed
> > > very little. Instead of the government wasting money on pointless tax
> > > cuts, maybe some of that money could be used to setup a Crown Funded
> > > Laboratory to fund research into economically viable alternative fuels
> > > and the rest used to pay off the overseas debt and public debt. That
> > > would be a hell of a lot more effective than giving a huge tax cut to
> > > those at the top of the food chain.
> > >
> > > Matthew Gardiner
> > > --
> > > I am the resident BOFH (Bastard Operator From Hell)
> > >
> > > If you don't like it, you can go [# rm -rf /home/luser] yourself
> > >
> > > Running SuSE Linux 7.1
> > >
> > > The best of German engineering, now in software form
> >
> > Unfortunately, the bigcats that own the oil won't allow any research to
> > be made usable by the public. It will impact on their business. I've
> > seen it happen all too often when someone comes out with a good idea it
> > gets shot down.
> > The cold-fusion flap in Utah... so called academics said it was a fraud.
> > In the Navy times the Navy tried it and it said they had great success
> > with cold-fusion. Never heard anything more about.
> >
> > --
> > V
> Hence the reason why it is necessary to have a government funded
> research centre to ensure that socially desirable technologies are
> researched. In New Zealand we have Crown Research which is funded by
> industry and the government. One spin off was in the 1970's when they
> developed a technique to turn natural gas into petrol, which as a worlds
> first. Had the oil crisis continued, NZ would have been self sufficient
> for the next 100 years.
>
:-) Now if we could only harness all that farting around in Capitol
Hill.
> Matthew Gardiner
> --
> I am the resident BOFH (Bastard Operator From Hell)
>
> If you don't like it, you can go [# rm -rf /home/luser] yourself
>
> Running SuSE Linux 7.1
>
> The best of German engineering, now in software form
--
V
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Chad Everett)
Subject: Re: Why do Win advocates suck? Part 1
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: 21 Apr 2001 10:31:23 -0500
On Sat, 21 Apr 2001 18:24:53 +0800, Todd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>Hmmm... are you talking Windows 2000? I could easily write a C program that
>would trash a Linux installation too unless you are not logged in as root
>(administrator in 2000).
>
Please tell my how I can give non-administrators permissions to create
CDs on my Windows 2000 Pro system. Every apps I've tried won't
let anyone except administrator write to the CD/RW drive. OS's
fault, not the apps.
Please tell me how normal users can do this thing that's trivial for
Linux.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Chad Everett)
Subject: Re: Red Hat has become scary?
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: 21 Apr 2001 10:36:09 -0500
On Sat, 21 Apr 2001 12:32:28 +0000, Matthias Warkus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>It was the Sat, 21 Apr 2001 13:15:20 +1200...
>...and Matthew Gardiner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Hmm, good question, when are we going to get one? Every time there is a
>> discussion some prick always wants to have a "committee" to discuss
>> things, thus slowing things down even more. Well as far as I know, we
>> go by the UK Constitution
>
>There is no such thing as a constitution for the United Kingdom if you
>don't count the Magna Carta.
>
So much for that New Zealand educational system Matthew is so proud of.
------------------------------
From: "Gary Hallock" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Why do Win advocates suck? Part 1
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 11:57:41 +0000
In article <pD7E6.702566$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Zorostorer"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Can I run commercial level applications like Softimage 3d, Protel,
> Orcad, Cadence, Hudini commercial applications on Linux (of course there
Cadence supports Linux:
http://www.cadence.com/company/pr/04_17_00linux.html
Gary
------------------------------
From: Andres Soolo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: What's the point
Date: 21 Apr 2001 16:20:42 GMT
Eric <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Then I started tackling my digital camera. I followed all the howtos I
> could find - no joy.
That's your problem.
You should only use the howtos relevant to your situation.
--
Andres Soolo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Love is the answer; but while you are waiting for the answer, sex
raises some pretty good questions.
-- Woody Allen
------------------------------
From: "Chad Myers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: Ctrl-Alt-Windows
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 16:11:00 GMT
"Todd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:9brmvl$8gl$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
> "Chris Ahlstrom" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > I'm damn sick of seeing those stupid "Windows" keys on
> > every frikkin' keyboard I own, including on my
> > laptop.
> >
> > Where can I get tiny penguin stickers to place
> > over that eye-sore?
> >
> > Chris
>
> Speaking of keyboards, I still have one of the *original* IBM PC-AT
> keyboards with that famous magnetic 'click' keysound.
>
> Those keyboards were made out of *metal* and they rocked.
>
> Wish you could still buy them new...
A budy of mine has a Fujitsu keyboard like that. I think he
bought it recently, they might still make it. Of course, it
was 10lbs but it's got the "clicks".
-c
------------------------------
From: "Edward Rosten" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
gnu.emacs.help,alt.religions.vim,alt.religion.emacs,fj.editor.vi,comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: Tired of XEMACS, moving to VIM
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 19:28:56 +0100
> I am just so tired of XEmacs. It crashes all the time. It does not have
> drag and drop support. Lisp is next to impossible to learn. I have to
> type basillions of stupid keystrokes to get the most trivial tasks
> accomplished. My left wrist is hurting from hitting C- and ESC- keys
> constantly. I have recently discovered VIM, a great programmers' editor
> (www.vim.org). All keystrokes are easy and fast, everything works, it
> creates backup files and so on. I am switching.
I won't share my thoughts on *Emacs with you, but you won't get any
better from user friendly trash such as vim. Real programmers use
something better like cat. Personally, I use echo and can highly
reccomend it to anyone.
-Ed
--
I spillced coffcee cincto my kcey boardc.c As a rcesulct, c's gcet
inctermixcced with cwactever I ctypce. Plcease replace mcy kceyboard.
ccthanks.
u 9 8 e j r (at) e c s . o x . a c . u k
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (The Ghost In The Machine)
Subject: Re: Aaron Kuklis Arrested!
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 16:41:16 GMT
In comp.os.linux.advocacy, Aaron R. Kulkis
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote
on Sat, 21 Apr 2001 03:43:17 -0400
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>Donn Miller wrote:
>>
>> "Public " wrote:
>>
>> > lungs. The man was allegedly became irrate shortly after entering the store and
>> > discovering that CompuUSA was no longer carrying the Windows 98 Operating System.
>>
>> Are you kidding?! If Windows 98 suddenly became extinct, Mr. Military
>> Man would go on a Windows-sized rampage, wiping out all Linux, FreeBSD,
>> and Solaris users.
>
>Linux, FreeBSD, and Solaris users are the GOOD guys (as well as HP-UX,
>IRIX, pt/x, etc. AIX guys are suspicious characters, and should be
>supervised closely.
Erm....would you mind explaining that? :-) Especially since
IBM is promoting Linux in its latest billboard ads (the ones with
"peace, love, penguin")?
[.sigsnip]
--
[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- insert random misquote here
EAC code #191 4d:05h:25m actually running Linux.
The Usenet channel. All messages, all the time.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (The Ghost In The Machine)
Subject: Re: Another story regarding XP and the dreaded Subscription model:
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 16:42:33 GMT
In comp.os.linux.advocacy, Roy Culley
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote
on Sat, 21 Apr 2001 15:57:21 +0200
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> Matthew Gardiner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_1284000/1284054.stm
>>
>> Although not incredibly indepth, it does cover the main issues
>> concerning customers.
>
>I like the last sentence:
>
> "Microsoft has never had an excellent track record
> on security."
>
>Typical british understatement. What they really wanted to say was:
>"Microsoft has never had a track record on security."
No, but they've had an excellent track record. Admittedly, it's
on bodges, crashes, and hacks.....but yes, the Brits do have
a flair for understatement. :-)
--
[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- insert random misquote here
EAC code #191 4d:05h:33m actually running Linux.
Are you still here?
------------------------------
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