Linux-Advocacy Digest #985, Volume #34 Tue, 5 Jun 01 14:13:05 EDT
Contents:
Re: Chicken and egg problem (Gerald Meazell)
Re: Windows advocate of the year. ("Robert Morelli")
Re: The beginning of the end for microsoft (Fred K Ollinger)
Re: Microsoft - WE DELETE YOU! ("Quantum Leaper")
Re: The beginning of the end for microsoft (Fred K Ollinger)
Re: Chicken and egg problem (Gerald Meazell)
Re: Microsoft - WE DELETE YOU! ("Quantum Leaper")
Re: The beginning of the end for microsoft (Fred K Ollinger)
Re: Chicken and egg problem ("Chad Myers")
Re: The beginning of the end for microsoft (cjt & trefoil)
Re: The beginning of the end for microsoft (Fred K Ollinger)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Gerald Meazell)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Chicken and egg problem
Date: 5 Jun 2001 10:33:22 -0700
"Ayende Rahien" <don'[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:<9fik2t$5te$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>...
> "Gerald Meazell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
> Just providing backward compatability doesn't mean anything.
> You have to lure the users to your platform.
> Not giving backward compatability is a fence they will either trip or climb
> over.
Precisely. So why did you post a link to an article whose major assertion is
that all you need is backward compatibility and include this commment:
>> Read it, very good article about how to get people to use new platforms.
>
> Giving backward compatability is nice, but what was the *killer app* of
> OS/2? What was the *reason* to move?
I could ask the same question about Win95, but I won't.
------------------------------
From: "Robert Morelli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Windows advocate of the year.
Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 23:38:06 -0600
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Bob Hauck"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Tue, 05 Jun 2001 10:36:51 +0100, Edward Rosten <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> I think we should have a Wincvocate of the year nominated (it makes a
>> change from nominating trolls).
>> I would like to nominate Ayende Rahien.
Is there some reason we need a Windows advocate of the year?
> Seconded. Honorable mention to Erik F.
I only pop into this group occasionally. The only name I actually
recognize among the posts is Eric Funkenbush because I once
had a frustrating exchange with him. (He was unable to wrap his
mind around a negative point I was making about Linux, and kept
trying to pointlessly argue against it.) Funkenbush strikes me as
more of a Microsoft spokesman than a Windows advocate. He
invariably defends the company, sometimes maintaining implausible
positions to do so.
Does anyone know whether he is actually a professional shill for
Microsoft (ala Stephen Barkto)?
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Fred K Ollinger)
Crossposted-To: comp.arch
Subject: Re: The beginning of the end for microsoft
Date: 5 Jun 2001 17:39:04 GMT
Erik Funkenbusch ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
: "KSG" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
: news:cKUR6.846$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
: >
: > "Michael Vester" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
: > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
: > > Ben Franchuk wrote:
: >
: > > I find a network card install in Linux quite simple. It has been over 4
: > > years since I used a dial-up ISP. A Linux install with a network card
: with
: > > my ISP requires setting the IP address, gateway and name servers. I
: never
: > > experienced a Linux install that did not identify the NIC and load the
: > > correct drivers.
: >
: > Maybe I could get you to install Linux on my computer. I've tried Debian
: > and Red Hat, neither found my NIC, and I could never get networking to
: work.
: > Win2k came up just fine with networking and all.
: This is a big problem with Linux. Many cards use a common chipset, which is
: fine if Linux can detect it, but if it can't, you may not know what chipset
: it's using, and the companies web site usually doesn't say.
scanpci
Fred
------------------------------
From: "Quantum Leaper" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft - WE DELETE YOU!
Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 17:40:10 GMT
"T. Max Devlin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> Said Quantum Leaper in alt.destroy.microsoft on Sun, 27 May 2001
> >"T. Max Devlin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> [...]
> >> I don't think any of the sock puppets have ever paid for W2K. They get
> >> it for free, and then babble on about how great it is. Guffaw.
> >>
> >Sorry turkey, me and 5999 other people got Windows 2K for FREE from
> >Microsoft... The problem with Linux is it doesn't support my DVD, and
that
> >makes it unusable to me...
>
> Nice catch; you almost ended up making the entirely UNLIMITED free
> access to Linux (something W2K becomes a pitiful alternative when
> considering) too obvious. The use of DVD support was slick.
>
> Ultimately, I think DVD support on a PC is really pretty stupid.
> Computers SUCK as DVD players, and CD-ROM is still the de facto
> standard. If you've got money to burn on stupid toys, it might be worth
> it. But, only if you got the W2K for free, obviously.
>
Sorry Max, most new PCs have a DVD drives and/or CDRW. I know my friend's
new computer has a DVD/CDRW combo drive. Right now CD-Roms are the de
facto standard, but in a few years they won't be anymore. Standards do
change, and with computers they can change over night. I remember in 1995
when I got my P75, a 4X drive was fast, and 2X drives were standard on most
computers, now its a DVD and/or CDRW that is standard, what will be the
standard tomarrow?
If an OS doesn't support the hardware, the users will find a OS that
will... MacOS and Windows both support DVDs, heck its even standard on new
Macs. So unless Linux supports a DVD, they will get left behind, no user
want a piece of hardware in their computer thats not usable...
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Fred K Ollinger)
Crossposted-To: comp.arch,misc.invest.stocks
Subject: Re: The beginning of the end for microsoft
Date: 5 Jun 2001 17:42:28 GMT
Larry Elmore ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
: Ben Franchuk wrote:
: >
: > Ian Pulsford wrote:
: > >
: > > That is so arrogant. If you tried to install the Yoyodyne 2020 system
: > > first time you would probably fail too. You are saying inexperienced
: > > people shouldn't even try. First time I ever tried DOS, OS/2, Linux,
: > > and FreeBSD I failed at installations. I redid them till I got them
: > > right. You are no smarter than the average man on the street, the only
: > > advantage you have is experience. Determined people always succeed
: > > eventually, those who don't usually just aren't interested in installing
: > > an OS in any case.
: >
: > And with new computers you DOZE bundled with Wxx already installed.
: > How if you want an computer with NO OS you don't get $XXX discount
: > for not having Wxx?
: If you want a custom car, you go to a custom car dealer. If you want a
: mass market car, but _without_ a transmission because you want to
: install your own special one, do you honestly expect to be able to go to
: a mass market auto dealer and pay _less_ for that car? _If_ there was a
But windows isn't needed. Can you go to a car dealer and get no options? Yes,
this is a more valid comparison. A car won't run w/o a transmission. It will
run w/o windows.
: sufficiently large market for cars without certain major systems,
: certainly the manufacturers and dealers would offer some that way.
Unless they signed a contract that said that they couldn't offer it or they
would have to pay more for standard things like transmission.
: Obviously, there simply isn't enough demand for computers without OS's.
: Anybody wanting a computer without an OS can _build one from parts_!
Not everyone who wants a computer w/ linux wants to install it. I'd take
a computer w/ debian.
: (anyone who can install a non-Windows OS can certainly build their own
: system) How much money will you save by _not_ paying for Windows that
: way? Not very much, if you price it out. Most people I know that build
: their own systems pay _more_ for the box because they want known
: high-quality components, not the unknown generics that are liable to
: show up in a cheap pre-built box. You certainly wouldn't save
: triple-digit amounts!!!
I think they pay less _and_ get better components, actually.
: And those of us who do not have children, are we stealing the planet
: from other people's children? Or are they stealing it from us? :)
Other people's children. But we're not stealing,
we're borrowing.
fred
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Gerald Meazell)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Chicken and egg problem
Date: 5 Jun 2001 10:42:52 -0700
"Mike" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:<qq6T6.21206$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>...
> 1994 time frame. Windows programs ran in a separate process, and as I recall
Separate process was good. All programs in a modern OS run in a separate process.
> there was no easy way to cut and paste between Windows apps, much less
> between Windows and OS/2 apps.
In later versions there was a common clipboard.
> The UI was just different enough to drive you
> nuts after a while (am I in a Windows app or an OS/2 app?). Functionality
That was a design point. Users shouldn't have to know what type of program
they're running in an OS that support another OS's software.
> was an issue; not every Windows program would run under OS/2. As I recall,
Those which used VxDs did not run.
> the Windows subsystem had to be started before a Windows app would run.
> Effectively, that meant waiting for Windows to boot, after already waiting
> for OS/2 to boot.
On a 386 or slow 486 you could feel the overhead of win starting up.
>
> In comparison, Win95 felt much different. Win16 programs ran transparently
> next to Win32 programs, and the UI was the same for both.
>
follow ups offline.
------------------------------
From: "Quantum Leaper" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft - WE DELETE YOU!
Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 17:47:42 GMT
"T. Max Devlin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> Said Quantum Leaper in alt.destroy.microsoft on Mon, 28 May 2001
> [...]
> >> That is not a "Linux" problem. The DVD communitty will not allow open
> >> source or free versions of the DVD drivers, and they wont produce
> >> commercial drivers.
> >>
> >I know that, and that the reason I won't switch, I would say it is a
Linux
> >problem.
>
> Sounds more like your problem. "Linux" is an OS; the only problems it
> has are technical glitches or bugs. As pointed out, the lack of DVD
> support is neither.
>
Linux problem is the 'DVD community' doesn't want open source drivers or DVD
decoding programs, so I would say that a problem with Linux. Closed source
program are available on the Mac and Windows.
> >Since the drivers would have to be closed source and distributed
> >as binary only. Something need to be done about it or you will lose
alot
> >of new users, since just about every new computer comes with a DVD
drive.
>
> BWAH-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA!
>
I guess you never go to Best Buy or any place that sells new computers,
since last time I checked most of the computers had a DVD or CDRW or a combo
drive. Laugh if you want, but I would suggest getting you head out of the
sand first...
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Fred K Ollinger)
Crossposted-To: comp.arch,misc.invest.stocks
Subject: Re: The beginning of the end for microsoft
Date: 5 Jun 2001 17:51:50 GMT
Toon Moene ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
: Peter da Silva wrote:
: [ Microsoft support line ... ]
: > I'd already used up my free calls. I managed to get them to call me back with
: > an actual competant tech by escalating the problem up a few levels... but by
: > then it was a week later and I'd already solved the problem by asking Usenet.
: You mean you can get help on Microsoft Windows (NT) problems on Usenet
: as well ?
: Doh ! Wonder what the advantage of Linux is, then :-)
When I did a dejanews search the first 20 matches were for linux, I was
searching for a driver for an old nic that win95 (and 98) couldn't autodetect.
I was actually annoyed (this was for someone else) b/c linux had such superior
support. Kind of ironic, people say buy windows b/c of better support they
never say to download linux for this reason, but I see it happening.
Different attitudes. When I hear win95 users these days, I swear I'm talking
to a mac user. :)
Fred
------------------------------
From: "Chad Myers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Chicken and egg problem
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 12:53:46 -0500
"Gerald Meazell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> "Ayende Rahien" <don'[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:<9fik2t$5te$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>...
> > "Gerald Meazell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> >
> > Just providing backward compatability doesn't mean anything.
> > You have to lure the users to your platform.
> > Not giving backward compatability is a fence they will either trip or climb
> > over.
>
> Precisely. So why did you post a link to an article whose major assertion is
> that all you need is backward compatibility and include this commment:
>
> >> Read it, very good article about how to get people to use new platforms.
>
>
> >
> > Giving backward compatability is nice, but what was the *killer app* of
> > OS/2? What was the *reason* to move?
>
> I could ask the same question about Win95, but I won't.
Because you know that there were several killer apps =)
-c
------------------------------
From: cjt & trefoil <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.arch,misc.invest.stocks
Subject: Re: The beginning of the end for microsoft
Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 12:58:52 -0500
Fred K Ollinger wrote:
>
> Larry Elmore ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> : Ben Franchuk wrote:
> : >
> : > Ian Pulsford wrote:
> : > >
> : > > That is so arrogant. If you tried to install the Yoyodyne 2020 system
> : > > first time you would probably fail too. You are saying inexperienced
> : > > people shouldn't even try. First time I ever tried DOS, OS/2, Linux,
> : > > and FreeBSD I failed at installations. I redid them till I got them
> : > > right. You are no smarter than the average man on the street, the only
> : > > advantage you have is experience. Determined people always succeed
> : > > eventually, those who don't usually just aren't interested in installing
> : > > an OS in any case.
> : >
> : > And with new computers you DOZE bundled with Wxx already installed.
> : > How if you want an computer with NO OS you don't get $XXX discount
> : > for not having Wxx?
>
> : If you want a custom car, you go to a custom car dealer. If you want a
> : mass market car, but _without_ a transmission because you want to
> : install your own special one, do you honestly expect to be able to go to
> : a mass market auto dealer and pay _less_ for that car? _If_ there was a
>
> But windows isn't needed. Can you go to a car dealer and get no options? Yes,
> this is a more valid comparison. A car won't run w/o a transmission. It will
> run w/o windows.
Well, it won't run without an OS. I suggest the analogy to tires. A car
won't go without tires, but you can generally get the tires of your choice.
>
> : sufficiently large market for cars without certain major systems,
> : certainly the manufacturers and dealers would offer some that way.
>
> Unless they signed a contract that said that they couldn't offer it or they
> would have to pay more for standard things like transmission.
>
> : Obviously, there simply isn't enough demand for computers without OS's.
> : Anybody wanting a computer without an OS can _build one from parts_!
>
> Not everyone who wants a computer w/ linux wants to install it. I'd take
> a computer w/ debian.
>
> : (anyone who can install a non-Windows OS can certainly build their own
> : system) How much money will you save by _not_ paying for Windows that
> : way? Not very much, if you price it out. Most people I know that build
> : their own systems pay _more_ for the box because they want known
> : high-quality components, not the unknown generics that are liable to
> : show up in a cheap pre-built box. You certainly wouldn't save
> : triple-digit amounts!!!
>
> I think they pay less _and_ get better components, actually.
>
> : And those of us who do not have children, are we stealing the planet
> : from other people's children? Or are they stealing it from us? :)
>
> Other people's children. But we're not stealing,
> we're borrowing.
>
> fred
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Fred K Ollinger)
Crossposted-To: comp.arch,misc.invest.stocks
Subject: Re: The beginning of the end for microsoft
Date: 5 Jun 2001 18:05:03 GMT
Ayende Rahien (don'[EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
: "Toon Moene" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
: news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
: > Peter da Silva wrote:
: >
: > [ Microsoft support line ... ]
: >
: > > I'd already used up my free calls. I managed to get them to call me back
: with
: > > an actual competant tech by escalating the problem up a few levels...
: but by
: > > then it was a week later and I'd already solved the problem by asking
: Usenet.
: >
: > You mean you can get help on Microsoft Windows (NT) problems on Usenet
: > as well ?
: Naturally, usually fast and accurate, too.
: Watch out for those MVP, too.
: > Doh ! Wonder what the advantage of Linux is, then :-)
: >
: I think that advantage of Linux is that you get to widen the horizon of the
: language.
: Asking a question in a Linux forum has a 50/50 chance to get you flamed to
: death.
This is highly unfair to say. Usually people who get flamed are faking things
the thumb up the butt kind of people who throw up their hands when the computer
doesn't work right the first time. People who try to solve the problem don't
get flamed.
People who answer linux questions are often well paid pros who are giving
free time to help people. They get pissed when they see that people are
working as hard on their own problem as they are or if they are faking things
to make linux look bad. Some things people do are so stupid, it's not
believable that they could get as far as they got and then make such a dumb
mistake.
Basically people get flamed for attitude.
: It very rarely happen on Windows forums.
It would if people came in, acting like windows sucks. I've seen some
mac vs. windows forums that got really hostile. Windows users called
mac people stupid like linux people call windows people stupid now.
Basically in a proprietary os, there's only so much you can do, then they
throw up their hands. Linux people have been known to roll their own drivers
and give them away.
I like linux better b/c I'd rather hang out w/ people who do things right,
who work until they get a solution, who have a lot of hard won knowledge,
than a bunch of whiners who know nothing about their machine, want to know
nothing, are PROUD to know nothing, and they give nothing back--why should
they, they paid and so should you.
This is a much different picture if you know the motives of all those involved.
Fred
------------------------------
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