Our main concesion to Pakistan is the layoff of $30B in debt they owe us.
On Monday 17 September 2001 09:58, Roger Oberholtzer wrote:
> On Mon, 17 Sep 2001 09:49:20 -0400
>
> dep <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> | On Monday 17 September 2001 08:09, Roger Oberholtzer wrote:
> | | But if we look at the bin Laden complaint against the US:
> | |
> | | - The US currently has a state of military occupation in
> | | KSA (Saudi Arabia). The US came when Iraq acted up, but they
> | | have not left.
> |
> | we have been asked to stay, repeatedly and continuously, by the saudi
> | royal family.
>
> So we stay. But in the context of my very first sentence, the next
> statement explained why HE, BIN LADEN, WHO'S POINT OF VIEW I WAS
> PRESENTING, feels this is a problem. Perhaps that was not clear enough in
> the opening line of my post.
>
> | | - bin Laden has problems with the KSA royal family. He, and
> | | many others too afraid to say so, would prefer a proper
> | | Islamic setup, perhaps like in Iran these days. However,
> | | the US is, effectively, supporting continued suppression of
> | | the Saudi peoples by their support of the royal family.
> |
> | "proper islamic setup"? you, sir, are guilty of perhaps the greatest
> | ethnic slur that could be uttered, for you have in that statement
> | painted all islamic peoples with the bin laden brush. iran, shiite,
> | would love nothing more than to see all the sunnis fall, which
> | includes bin laden, afghanistan, iraq, and a substantial portion of
> | the arab world (iranians, by the way, are not arabs). in short, like
>
> (Never said they were. But they are Moslem...)
>
> | so many europeans, you have no goddam idea what you're talking about.
>
> Not so. I was stating how <em> bin Laden </em> sees it.
> And he does. If you do not understand your enemy, how do you expect to
> fight him? So, I do stand by my statement that it is what he wants.
> I did NOT say that the rest of the Islamic world wants or agrees with it.
> I do not think they do. But we were discussing bin Laden and his mind
> set - which is centered on these facts - whether everyone else agrees
> with him or not. This is what he believes. And it effects his activities
> and those of the rest of "the base".
>
> Perhaps I was too vague in saying that bin Laden wants an Islamic
> setup. OK. They want one as they define it, which is not the way most
> Moslems would do so. I was not stating a fact I agreed with, nor stating
> what Moslems world wide would like. I was stating what bin Laden wants.
> Whether it is a perverted interpretation of Islamic law is neither here
> nor there - it is what he wants. Which was all I was presenting. NOT
> agreeing with. Just describing.
>
> And he sees America as an obstacle to this. I did not say that was reality.
> Only his perception.
>
> (And, I'm not a god damned European. Just one of those god damned
> Americans. And, I feel have as much right to voice opinions as anyone. And,
> all any of us are doing here is just that. No topic we have brought up is
> so cut and dry that we are covering all aspects in our little e-mails. No
> matter what one of us writes, someone can point out a problem and shoot it
> full of holes.)
>
> | | - So, he wants the US out of KSA so the country can move forward.
> | | As long as the US stays, he feels it is a military occupation
> | | that does more to support the royal family than to deter Iraq
> | | or increase peace in the area. And, peace in KSA and the Gulf at
> | | the price of attacks at home?
> |
> | your definition if forward is a peculiar one. and we do not give a
> | toot as to what he feels until what he feels is the fires of hell,
> | which shall be coming along to collect him shortly.
>
> 'forward' as HE sees it. That was the whole point. As HE sees it.
>
> Surely he is wrong. But I WANT to understand why someone would do this.
> I need to see what his point of view is. I need this to come to grips
> with things. September 11 was not a random act of hatred. So then what
> was it. What would a person have to believe in order to do such a thing?
>
> I have many friends who are Arabs. I am unsure how to relate to them now.
> They are my friends. What would it take for them to think like this? Could
> they? I listen to them as always. Do I hear the same thing? Have they
> been saying things I never paid close attention to but, if I know how
> bin Laden thinks, maybe I will hear a different meaning?
>
> This was what my exercise was all about.
>
> | | In no way does this justify September 11th.
> |
> | ah yes, the whole "the u.s. had it coming, but that's not to say that
> | the u.s. had it coming" crap we're beginning to hear from the
> | cheese-eating surrender monkeys of the world.
>
> You are reading into this other that was intended. The US did not have
> this comming. No one does. Ever. Period. If you knew me you would not
> feel this about my character. Your statement absolutely does not describe
> me. Perhaps in the sake of brevity this does not come across. That is
> my mistake.
>
> I am only suggesting that the US pay more attention to the whole picture.
>
> Take Pakistan. (Insert joke here.) The US poured lots of money into
> Pakistan when they helped in Afghanistan. Both sides were 'happy'. Why
> do you think Pakistan did this? To get money and arms for their fight with
> India. So, when the Pakistan government wanted to spend some of that
> cash on, say, fighter aircraft from the US, they were told no, and some
> money was and still is impounded. Did the US have all this sorted out
> with Pakistan before hand? No. Instead, it was sort of a Scarlett O'Hara
> number. The resulting relationship with Pakistan has suffered. They feel
> cheated. This is why there was concern that Pakistan might not want to
> get burned (as they see it - remember - others have a point of view, too)
> a second time. I wonder what concessions the US have made to get this
> support from Pakistan and what new problems are being layed now.
>
> | | But if the US would
> | | just stay out of some problems, all might be better off. As to the
> | | concern over oil, well, there are other sources than KSA. If an
> | | Islamic regime started by cutting back on oil, then so be it.
> | | Conserve. It is possible.
> | |
> | | I still agree with Keith that terrorism will not go away. There
> | | will never be a time when everyone is content. So why go out of
> | | your way to be a target?
> |
> | your ringing endorsement of cowardice is duly noted.
>
> How do you get this from what I wrote?
>
> Is a coward someone who better plans his battles? Or sees beyond
> today's battle to the bigger one tommorrow.
>
> And, I think tommorrow's bigger battle is here today.
--
Ronnie
==================
Life can be a dream; or it can be a nightmare
it's all in your mind
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