Ehm, I have to say that "biguela" sounds pretty amusing to italian ears...
Paolo Declich
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stephan Olbertz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, December 15, 2003 11:58 AM
Subject: Re: Names of composers (Was: Vihuela)
> Hello Antonio, Stewart and all,
>
> personally I don't like the term Spanish tablature we use out
> of convenience too much, but I think the problem is hard to
> solve.
> In the sixteenth century the French used mainly what we today
> call French tablature, the Italians usually wrote what we call
> Italian tablature and the Germans used German tablature.
> Following this logic Spanish tablature would have been the
> usual system in Spain, which we know is not true, and I
> believe there are far more examples in Italian tablature from
> Naples than in Neapolitan.
> If we on the other hand would call the tablature systems after
> their supposed origin or the earliest sources, I understand we
> would have to call French tablature Italian and Italian
> tablature French.
> Anyway, I like to think of Valencian tablature, as Antonio
> describes in his EM-article, because it is the most determined
> way of naming the beast, but without thinking of Valencian as
> a variant of Neapolitan. After all Neapolitan, French and
> Italian tablature could all be variants of Valencian as well.
> Neapolitan then would probably have been invented by someone
> who thought "0" not to be a number, and French by someone who
> disliked arabic figures, maybe an expatriate Spanish hardcore
> biguelist :-
> BTW, has anybody tried to track down the origin of the third
> source for Valencian tablature, the ms additions to a copy of
> Denss' "Florilegium" in Munich? Antonio?
>
> Regards,
>
> Stephan
>
> Am 15 Dec 2003 um 1:29 hat Antonio Corona geschrieben:
>
> > Dear Stewart and friends,
> >
> > I believe we should not dismiss the possibility that
> > Milan`s system of tablature might have been an
> > offshoot of Neapolitan tab. There were strong ties
> > between the Aragonese and Valencian courts and Naples
> > which was also a Spanish possession. Besides, an
> > interesting piece in this jigsaw is the snippet of
> > tablature found written in the flyleaf of the
> > _Epistolariun familiarum_ by Lucio Marineo Siculo,
> > published at Valencia in 1514, now in the British
> > Library in a unique system, where, again, the upper
> > line indicates the first string and the "0" is used
> > for the first string. The Valencian connection is - I
> > believe -significative. Bearing this in mind, and
> > despite all the differences between the Marineo Siculo
> > fragment and Milan's tab, a case might be made for
> > calling tablature with the upper line for the first
> > string and "0" for the open string "Valencian".
> > (For those interested in having a look at this source,
> > see _Early Music_, vol. xx, no. 4, November 1992, pp.
> > 594-600. A photograph of the piece appears in p. 594.)
> >
> > On other subjects, sorry Göran, but Milan never signed
> > his name as Luis (or Luys) de Milan, but simply as
> > Luys Milan (no "de" there to suggest a Milanese
> > provenance). On the other hand, he did not speak
> > Italian either. The only concordance between
> > Castiglione's book and that by Milan is the name. The
> > former (which was published in a Spanish translation
> > by Juan Boscan at Barcelona in 1534) deals with the
> > appropriate attitudes, behaviour etc. of a gentleman;
> > the latter (Valencia, 1562) describes Milan's life and
> > adventures at the Valencian court of Germaine de Foix.
> > Milan tended to be quite vain, and it shows clearly
> > both in this book as well as in the woodcut of _El
> > Maestro_, where he equates himself with Orpheus.
> > Incidentally, among the accomplishments Milan was
> > proud of was that of being poet, and this is one of
> > the reasons why Juan Fernandez criticized him in the
> > source you mention ("Coplas de Juan Fernandez..."),
> > This collection of poetry was also published at
> > Valencia, in 1562 (_Las Obras de don Ioan Fernandez de
> > Heredia assi temporales, como espirituales dirigidas
> > al ilustrissimo seńor don Francisco de Aragon_). Here,
> > again, Milan never appears as Luis de Milan. As an
> > example, there is a the poem called "Don Joan
> > Fernandez a Don Luys Milan"; or later on it is
> > mentioned that: "Don Luys Milan embio vn colloquio muy
> > largo a don Ioan Fernandez". Fernandez is rather harsh
> > in his judgement of Milan as a poet, but in this same
> > poem he admits that he can play well:
> >
> > Si la vihuela oluidays,
> > y trobays y componeys,
> > tomays lo que no sabeys
> > y lo que sabeys dejais (...)
> >
> > (If forget the vihuela
> > and write and compose verses
> > you take what you don't know
> > And leave aside waht you know ...)
> >
> > With best wishes,
> > Antonio
> >
> > --- Stewart McCoy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > escribió: > Dear Göran,
> > >
> > > You refer to Milan's tablature as Neapolitan. There
> > > seems to be some
> > > confusion about this, if only in my own mind.
> > >
> > > Milan's tablature for vihuela has open strings
> > > notated as 0. A chord
> > > of F major (assuming G tuning) would look like
> > >
> > > =2=
> > > =3=
> > > =3=
> > > =0=
> > > ===
> > > ===
> > >
> > > Milano's tablature for viola has open strings
> > > notated as 1. A chord
> > > of F major (assuming G tuning) would look like
> > >
> > > =3=
> > > =4=
> > > =4=
> > > =1=
> > > ===
> > > ===
> > >
> > > Milano's tablature is called Neapolitan tablature,
> > > but should we
> > > call Milan's tablature Neapolitan too? I remember
> > > discussing this
> > > point with June Yaxley at a meeting of the Lute
> > > Society in London,
> > > not long before she died. She maintained that both
> > > tablatures should
> > > be called Neapolitan. I have always thought that
> > > Milano's viola
> > > tablature should be called Neapolitan, and Milan's
> > > tablature
> > > Spanish. More observant Lutenetters might have
> > > noticed how careful I
> > > was to side-step this issue in my message of 12th
> > > December
> > > ("Vihuela").
> > >
> > > Certainly it would be convenient to use different
> > > words for
> > > different systems. I would be interested to know
> > > what you and others
> > > think.
> > >
> > > Best wishes,
> > >
> > > Stewart.
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "G.R. Crona" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2003 10:54 AM
> > > Subject: Re: Names of composers (Was: Vihuela)
> > >
> > >
> > > Dear Arthur,
> > >
> > > when reading the postings of this thread, it
> > > suddenly struck me:
> > > Luís de
> > > Milán... Luigi da Milano. Was he actually an
> > > Italian? Or did he get
> > > his
> > > epithet from having spent part of his life in
> > > Milano? In those days,
> > > surnames often indicated provenance. His music was
> > > quite italianate
> > > and his
> > > book "El cortesano", (1561) was apparently based on
> > > Castiglione so
> > > he
> > > probably spoke Italian. I gather, that not much of
> > > his earlier life
> > > is
> > > known, so hypothetically he could have been an
> > > expatriate Italian,
> > > seeking
> > > his fortune in Spain. Also his unique (and in my
> > > view superior) use
> > > of
> > > Neapolitan TAB.
> > >
> > > Funny how threads on this list suddenly trigger a
> > > new question!
> > >
> > > Best Regards
> > >
> > > Göran
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
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