Exactly. That's why I seldom do that.
RT

----- Original Message ----- From: "Lex van Sante" <lvansa...@gmail.com>
To: "lute mailing list list" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 10:58 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: [off list] Google Art project


I'm sorry to hear that, because it means going to early music concerts must be a torment for you in most cases.

Lvs



Op 8 feb 2011, om 16:33 heeft Roman Turovsky het volgende geschreven:

That's why we have so much music in minor keys, n'est ce pas?
I for one can't stand half-ass minor thirds.
RT


----- Original Message ----- From: "Lex van Sante" <lvansa...@gmail.com>
To: "lute mailing list list" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 10:28 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: [off list] Google Art project


Minor thirds were regarded as more or less dissonant anyway, and maybe the so called Elisabethan Melancholy was to be expressed using insufferable minor thirds.

LvS
Op 8 feb 2011, om 16:21 heeft Roman Turovsky het volgende geschreven:

It can also be really insufferable, when it renders
minor 3rds too wide.
RT

From: "Lex van Sante" <lvansa...@gmail.com>
To: "lute mailing list list" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 10:17 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: [off list] Google Art project


Not all of them were and are.
A 6th comma meantone temperament upon g on a Renaissancelute tunes to g' is quite pleasant to the ear, well my ear at least. I find that when I just tune my lute to the sound I want to hear it ends up being in this temperament.

Cheers, Lex
Op 8 feb 2011, om 16:12 heeft Roman Turovsky het volgende geschreven:

Those temperaments were and are for masochists.
RT

----- Original Message ----- From: "Lex van Sante" <lvansa...@gmail.com>
To: "lute mailing list list" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 9:59 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: [off list] Google Art project


I think there is a mixup between fret-spacing and fret thickness.
Frets being of equal thickness may well mean that this particular lute had a high action which temporarily can be corrected by tying frets of equal diameter. The frets of this lute do not seem to be placed at the 6th comma meantone temperament which most of us seem to use. I am uncertain if this then would automatically mean that they are placed at equal intervals. There were many types of temperaments available to the 16th century luteplayer, most of which sound too harsh for our modern ears.

Cheers, Lex
Op 8 feb 2011, om 15:43 heeft Roman Turovsky het volgende geschreven:

Anthony,
the lute denotes FAMILIAL HARMONY, and the broken string denotes that that familial harmony
was disrupted by a death.
And the fretting is equally tempered, just like it was (and should be) in real life.
RT



----- Original Message ----- From: "Anthony Hind" <agno3ph...@yahoo.com> To: "Ed Durbrow" <edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp>; "Martyn Hodgson" <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
Cc: <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 9:35 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: [off list] Google Art project


Dear Ed, Martyn, and All,

As you lecture on this painting, and until now, I have only given it an admirative, but casual look, may I formulate a few questions about the significance of the stringing and the fretting, about which you may be able to
enlighten me?
The fretting appears to be equal and not stepped (which is quite different from

Dowland's indications), but is this significant of typical stringing of the
time?

It could be that zooming in alters the perspective and gives too much
importance to this detail which the painter might have considered
insignificant; but it might also have been highly significant of the practise of the time (around 1533), but not necessarily of good practise, as it was
deemed by those knowledgeable in luting.

The detail, as you say, is indeed extraordinary, which tends to give the (possibly mistaken?) impression that the painting of the lute might be almost as accurate as a photograph. Although, photographic accuracy is not necessarily

informative per se, as the lute could still be painted from memory (doubtful?) or an example of just one man's stringing, or even a lute strung up as a painter's prop and not for playing; but in any case, certain details of instruments in the painting (musical or otherwise) could have been focussed on (at the expense of others), tweaked or altered, to conform with the complex
primary symbolic message conveyed.

For example, it seems to have been established that some of the instruments are

misaligned, as possible symbols of impending chaos, or aligned to the date of
Good Friday 1533.

"But cleaning of the picture has established that each one of the instruments to the right of the celestial globe - a cylindrical shepherd's dial, two quadrants, a polyhedral sundial and a torquetum - are all curiously misaligned for use in a northerly latitude. This is unlikely to have been an oversight on the artist's part, since one of his closest friends in London was the
astronomer Nikolaus Kratzer  (...)"

"The misaligned instruments are surely emblems of chaos, of the heavens out of joint. The fact that they were intended to be read symbolically is suggested by

the generally encrypted nature of the whole painting and confirmed by the lute
with a broken string on the shelf below (...)"
http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/art-holbeins-inner-game-1291477.html

That the musical instruments are defective, in that one string of the lute is broken and one of the flutes are missing from the case of flutes is evident; but might it not also be possible that Holbein expected the would-be viewer (just as for the sundial) to recognize that this instrument was not ideally strung, according to the principles of the time (i.e. if those principles were
already the same as those at J.  Dowland's time, around 1610)?

I note that the frets (fre t1 to fret 8), apart from being double, would appear
to be almost equal in thickness.

At the same time, it would appear that the strings are set as high as possible in relation to the bridge-holes. Could this raised string height have been used to compensate for the resulting raised fret height at fret 8 (due
to the equal fretting)?

The presence of both these features together, could argue against the likelihood that the lute was fretted with unequal frets, and that the painter had simply abstracted away from this; but possibly indicates that the painter is "describing" an actual lute strung in this particular way; although if we
accept

that, can we be sure that this was a general practise at that time (1533), or just one man's "lazy" habits, or more interestingly a pattern that those in the

know would recognize as a badly strung lute which would be difficult to play.

If significant, this certainly would not correspond to the later suggestion by Dowland (as pointed out by Martyn Hodgson), in John Dowland's 'OTHER NECESSARIE Observations....' Varietie (1610). Here Dowland relates fret sizes
to  strings of the lute,
Fret 1 and 2: countertenor ie 4th course
3 and 4: as Great Meanes ie 3rd
5 and 6: as Small Meanes ie 2nd
7, 8 and 9: as Trebles ie 1st

(PS I wrote the whole of this message, but then realised there was a flaw in my

reasoning. If the general tendency around 1533 was to have equal frets, and this called for raised strings at the bridge, why not simply make the bridge higher? The raised strings at the bridge would have to be compensating for something that was not expected when the lute was given its bridge.

Indeed, I used this solution on my Renaissance lute when I first added loaded strings, as their large movement tended to touch the frets. Thus perhaps the
expected

fretting by the lute maker was frets decreasing in thickness, and the raising at the bridge a compensation for the present "poor" equal fretting.

I also agree with you Ed, that the strings appear rather thin, particularly relative to the lute holes, and even the smalles treble string, might be thinner than the 0.42 postulated by Martin Shepherd, as being the smallest possible string at the time (if not made from gut strips); but I would point out that some of these features, thin strings, for example, might also have been chosen by the artist to underline the fragility of the harmony they represent, and
the  bolder

thickness of the transverse frets might then have served to contrast this.

In this case the pattern chosen, equal thick frets and thin strings (possibly both not ideal), might have been there to underline a symbolism, which is also present in so many other structural elements in the painting, rather than
significant of a general practise.

These are just my attempts at organising my thoughts and perhaps simply show my ignorance; indeed, perhaps I am the only one to see the fretting as equal; or many of you use equal fretting for a lute that has a particular problem (I seem to remember that might be the case), if so please do excuse my "balbutiements".

Regards
Anthony

----- Message d'origine ----
De : Ed Durbrow <edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp>
À : LuteNet list <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Envoyé le : Sam 5 février 2011, 3h 32min 30s
Objet : [LUTE] Re: Google Art project

I missed the beginning of this thread. Luckily I checked the link. Wow! I'm so happy to have this link. What detail! I use this picture in my academic lecture class at Saitama U. (not teaching one this year or
next unfortunately). It is always good for two or three 90 minute
lectures, what with all the tangents I go off on.

Those are quite thin strings on that lute. I wonder if he was using
carbon fiber. :-)


[3][1]http://www.googleartproject.com/museums/nationalgallery/the-am
bas

     sadors

Ed Durbrow
Saitama, Japan
[2]http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/
[3]http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/

--

References

1. http://www.googleartproject.com/museums/nationalgallery/the-ambas
2. http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/
3. http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/


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