With all due respect to Michael Schaeffer, it shouldn't be forgotten that Joseph Iadone was playing the lute with flesh, thumb-index technique, and wonderful sound in the 1950s. I think that because he was known more as an ensemble player (but what an ensemble player!) than a soloist, he's overlooked by many today. A uniquely exciting player (but one ought to be charmed, not excited by lute playing, yes?).
Ned On Mar 27, 2012, at 4:22 AM, William Samson wrote: > Dear Martyn. > > You and I are both old enough (OK - I'm older) to remember when the > lute sound expected by audiences was the Julian Bream sound. Back in > the 60s and even into the early 70s few lutenists were willing to > concede that Tarrega technique, with nails, should be abandoned in > favour of flesh (never mind pinky or playing position). It took > somebody with the stature (and charisma) of Michael Schaeffer to > convince the lute playing world that flesh did work, and produced a > wonderful sound (- that would have been around 1975). Suddenly > everybody could hear that flesh was the way to go! Even so, it took > several years for some of the pros to concede this and some never did. > > So what was the problem? Why did the 'muffled' sound of flesh > overnight turn into the proper lute sound, and the nail sound become > 'harsh' and 'vulgar' when it wasn't before? > > I don't know the answer, but the story of the lutenist's right hand > isn't over yet - Not by a long way. > > Bill > From: Martyn Hodgson <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> > To: David Tayler <vidan...@sbcglobal.net>; lute > <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>; William Samson <willsam...@yahoo.co.uk> > Sent: Tuesday, 27 March 2012, 8:49 > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Right hand plucking position - was Re: Quality vs > Quantity > Dear Bill, > Some things are, indeed, less certain than others (which is why it's > prudent to speak in terms of significant probabilities) so that, for > example, octaves on basses are less certain than other things. > Thoough > in the case of Dowland I don't understand the logic of linking his > instructions for stringing to works by other lutenist composers.... > But the discussion was around the position of the right hand. In this > case the historical evidence is very clear (close to the bridge). > Naturally, there are those who have developed a modern technique > which > does not easily allow this and I suppose their concious (or > sub-concious) prejudices and wishful thinking make them seek > explanations along the lines of: 'I like it this way - and the Old > Ones > would have too if only they had my sense and sensibility'........... > But putting such thoughts to one side, the real issue is how else > are > we to attempt to recapture as best as we can what the early composers > had in mind and what their auditors expected to hear; other than by > looking at the historical evidence rather than to our own prejudices. > regards > Martyn > --- On Tue, 27/3/12, William Samson <[1]willsam...@yahoo.co.uk> > wrote: > From: William Samson <[2]willsam...@yahoo.co.uk> > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Right hand plucking position - was Re: Quality > vs Quantity > To: "David Tayler" <[3]vidan...@sbcglobal.net>, "lute" > <[4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> > Date: Tuesday, 27 March, 2012, 8:23 > Good points all, David (as far as I understand them :o\ ) > One great example is that of renaissance ornamentation. When we > compare the 'Varietie' versions of Dowland with MS versions of > the > same > thing (for example the King of Denmark's Galliard, or the > Fantasie) > we > find that MS versions are dripping with ornament indications. I > HAVE > heard people attempting these, but usually as a demonstration > between > consenting lutenists - not something to be incorporated in a > public > performance or on a CD. > Diana Poulton was pointing this out (as well as pinky down) long, > long, > long ago, but none of the pros (and few of the ams) at that time > paid a > blind bit of heed. Since then, pinky down seems to have become > the > norm, but as you say, renaissance ornamentation is tucked away > out > of > sight. > A serious point is that exploration of authentic playing practice > very > often comes from the amateur side of things, where they don't > HAVE > to > make the lute sound that audiences have come to expect, to earn a > living. > Let's not give up on these things, fellow amateurs. The > professionals > will eventually follow us, though it will be a L-O-N-G haul . . . > Bill > From: David Tayler <[1][5]vidan...@sbcglobal.net> > To: lute <[2][6]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> > Sent: Tuesday, 27 March 2012, 6:58 > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Right hand plucking position - was Re: > Quality > vs > Quantity > This is a weight of evidence vs "minority report" scenario > (sorry, > I'm > from the Berkeley area and we value our Philip Dick) > So for example in the lute world you can say do you want octave > stringing on Dowland? > And the weight of evidence answer is, No, because 90 percent of > the > sources, or more, show octave stringing. > But of course we have Dowland's instructions. > So the issue is, how do you balance these things? And that > requires > some finesse. > Starting with rule No. 1, the uniformity rule, we can > immediately > see > that there was no one way of doing things. Then we proceed > along a > line > of research, addressing a specific repertory, in a specific > time > and > place, possibly even a special group or school of playing. > Then the question changes, and you are left with, well, some > did > this, > but most did this, WHY did they do this and WHO were the ones > doing > it. > And then you make a judgment. You don't always know the who and > the > why, and that is the musical archeology part, building the > house > from > a > brick or two. > Each person has to decide, do they want to be in the majority > or > the > minority? Well, then you are making the same judgment that > someone > back > then would make. > I would add, from a personal point of view, that there is also > a > compelling necessity. So for example, after playing for for X > number > of > years, I can say, well, I tried it that way for forty years, > well > forty-four years, and it still feels wrong. That isn't history, > it > is > kinesthetic sensibility. On the larger scale of things, that > follows > the neoplatonic ideal that the hand and eye should be the > measure > of > all things. > It is always good to try it: plant that pinky and try it. I try > it > all > the time. And fail. > The whole musicology issue is a glorious way to re-imagine the > past, > not give pinky parking tickets. > So for example I have never seen a piece of renaissance lute > music > played with renaissance ornamentation. So I could become grumpy > and > categorical, or I could say, wow, this is so cool, that this is > right > around the corner, can't wait to see this, > License my roving hands, and let them go > Before, behind, between, above, below. > O, my America, my Newfoundland.... > __________________________________________________________________ > -- > To get on or off this list see list information at > [1][3][7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > -- > References > 1. [4][8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > -- > References > 1. > [9]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vidan...@sbcglobal.net > 2. > [10]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > 3. [11]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > 4. [12]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > -- > > References > > 1. mailto:willsam...@yahoo.co.uk > 2. mailto:willsam...@yahoo.co.uk > 3. mailto:vidan...@sbcglobal.net > 4. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > 5. mailto:vidan...@sbcglobal.net > 6. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > 7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > 8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > 9. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vidan...@sbcglobal.net > 10. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > 11. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > 12. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
