I'm couldn't count the courses, pegs or pegholes as the image isn't that
clear. Also I don't think you can assume that these things are correct to
every detail.
But apart from that it looks too big overall to be a 4-course guitar and
why should anyone want to reduce the number of courses.
If you go back to page one of the site and scroll down you will find a
similar image of a fresco in the Borgia Apartments, the Vatican,
"Quadrivium, Music", by Bernadino Pinturicchio, dated 1493.
The Borgias were Spanish.
Monica
----- Original Message -----
From: "Martyn Hodgson" <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
To: "Sean Smith" <lutesm...@mac.com>; "Monica Hall" <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
Cc: "Lutelist" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2013 9:07 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: 4 course guitar in Italy - was Calata de StrAmbotto
Dear Monica,
You could be right - but count the number of pegs (not pegholes).
Perhaps a viola being used as a 4 course guitar............
Martyn
--- On Tue, 22/1/13, Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
From: Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: [LUTE] Re: 4 course guitar in Italy - was Calata de
StrAmbotto
To: "Sean Smith" <lutesm...@mac.com>
Cc: "Lutelist" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Date: Tuesday, 22 January, 2013, 8:56
A nice picture - but it is a vihuela or viola not a 4-course guitar.
Monica
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sean Smith" <[1]lutesm...@mac.com>
To: "lute" <[2]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Monday, January 21, 2013 10:37 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: 4 course guitar in Italy - was Calata de StrAmbotto
>
> There does seem to be some iconography from Italian sources. I
realize
> this page
> [3]http://www.thecipher.com/viola_da_gamba_cipher-3.html
> is light on sources but I believe the matching guitar-shaped
instrument
> and violin intarsia is from the Gonzaga estate c.1507.
>
> The intarsia is about 2/3 down the page just under the Girolamo Dai
Libri
> detail. It is difficult to count the pegs but the strings do appear
> doubled.
>
> There are other small vihuela-like plucked instruments on the page of
> Italian origin, too.
>
> Sean
>
>
> On Jan 21, 2013, at 10:01 AM, Monica Hall wrote:
>
> Interesting list. Most of them are late and do the sources actually
say
> that the pieces are for guitar? In most cases it may just be that
the
> tablature is 4 lines and the tuning matches.
>
> Tyler says of the first one that the pieces were probably copied in
> 1570s - but how does he know that?
>
> I have actually seen the manuscript in the Royal Academy of Music -
in
> fact
> I have a copy of it. It is 17th century rather than 16th and it
belonged
> to Robert Spencer.
>
> The 4-course music in Concerto Vago
> is for the chitarrino a quatro corde alla
> napolitana which may be a small lute or mandora.
>
> And as for Boetischer - well he is very unreliable - deliberately
> misrepresented things because he was a Nazi and anti-semitic. I
have
> just been reading an article about Neusidler and he disparaged him
for
> that reason.
>
> Best
>
> Monica
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary R. Boye"
<[4]boy...@appstate.edu>
> To: "Monica Hall" <[5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
> Cc: "Martyn Hodgson" <[6]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>; "Lutelist"
> <[7]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> Sent: Monday, January 21, 2013 5:26 PM
> Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: 4 course guitar in Italy - was Calata de
> StrAmbotto
>
>
>> Dear Monica,
>>
>> I have a few more sources listed for 4-course guitar with at least
>> Italian
>> tablature, although possibly not all Italian:
>>
>> B-Bc MS LIt. XY no. 24135 [1570-1580 (tablature section)]
>> (Italy?) [not in RISM; see TYLER p. 31]
>> 4-course guitar in Italian tablature
>>
>> GB-Lam Ms. 645 [1625 and 1650]
>> "Italian manuscript in tablature for 4-course chitarra (ca.1625) and
>> single line tablature (?for violin)" (Italy) [not in RISM; see TYLER
p.
>> 83]
>> 4-course guitar in Italian tablature
>>
>> Thomassini 1645
>> Thomassini, Filippo, publisher. Conserto vago di balletti, volte,
>> corrente, et gagliarde, con la loro canzone alla franzese nuovamente
>> posti
>> in luce per sonare con liuto, tiorba, et *chitarrino a quatro corde
alla
>> napolitana* insieme, o soli ad arbitrio, e diletto de' virtuosi, et
>> nobili
>> professori, o studiosi dei questo instromento (Rome, [Italy]:
Filippo
>> Thomassini)
>> 8-course lute in Italian tablature
>> 11-course theorbo in Italian tablature
>> 4-course guitar in Italian tablature
>>
>> I-Fn Ms. Magliabechiano, classe XIX, codice 28 [1667-1700]
>> [RISM B/VII p. 107]
>> 4-course guitar in Italian tablature
>>
>> I-Fn Ms. Magliabechiano, classe XIX, codice 29 [1667-1700]
>> [RISM B/VII p. 108]
>> 4-course guitar in Italian tablature
>> ***
>>
>> These last two depend on Boetticher for the instrumentation--and I
fully
>> realize how dangerous that is! I assume he merely counted the number
of
>> courses required in the tablature, but somehow he was unable to do
even
>> that in other circumstances. And perhaps the others are not the
"real" 4c
>> guitar?
>>
>> Gary
>>
>> On 1/21/2013 8:54 AM, Monica Hall wrote:
>>> Well - obviously the 4-course guitar was played in Spain although
the
>>> extent to which it was played in the contrapuntal manner suggested
by
>>> the few surviving pieces in Mudarra and Fuenllana is unknown.
>>>
>>> The point which Meucci makes about Barberiis is that it is a bit
odd
>>> that a printed collection of lute music should include just four
pieces
>>> for an instrument of a different type. There are references to
the
>>> "chitarra" which clearly imply (if that's not a contradiction) that
it
>>> was a small lute.
>>>
>>> The safest thing to say is that there is no surviving Italian
repertoire
>>> for the 4-course guitar.
>>>
>>> Monica
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Martyn Hodgson"
>>> <[8]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
>>> To: "Monica Hall" <[9]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
>>> Cc: "Lutelist" <[10]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
>>> Sent: Monday, January 21, 2013 11:28 AM
>>> Subject: [LUTE] 4 course guitar in Italy - was Calata de StrAmbotto
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Dear Monica,
>>>>
>>>> You write 'There('s) no hard evidence that the 4-course guitar
was
>>>> played in Italy' and, of course, you're quite right.
>>>>
>>>> But it was played in Spain, then a major influence in all
Hapsburg
>>>> lands and in some Italian states as well as Naples. So I don't
see it
>>>> being played in the leading maritime centre of Venice as
particularly
>>>> far-fetched. And I'm referring to the figure of eight shaped
>>>> instrument
>>>> - I think we're in danger of going a bit too far down the
invisible
>>>> path of supposing a mandora shaped guitar was the default.
>>>>
>>>> regards
>>>>
>>>> Martyn
>>>>
>>>> --- On Mon, 21/1/13, Monica Hall <[11]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
wrote:
>>>>
>>>> From: Monica Hall <[12]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
>>>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Calata de StrAmbotto
>>>> To: "Sean Smith" <[13]lutesm...@mac.com>
>>>> Cc: "Lutelist" <[14]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
>>>> Date: Monday, 21 January, 2013, 10:38
>>>>
>>>> I am afraid the pieces in Barberiis are probably not for the
4-course
>>>> guitar
>>>> but - as Stuart has kindly pointed out with the appropriate
>>>> reference -
>>>> for
>>>> a small 4-course lute or mandora.
>>>> Renato Meucci, Da 'chitarra italiana' a 'chitarrone': una nuova
>>>> interpretazione; in Enrico Radesca da Foggia e il suo tempo Atti
del
>>>> Convegno di studi, Foggia 7-8 Aprile 2000, pp. 30 - 57.
>>>> There is a case to be made that this music by Bareriis isn't for
>>>> figure-of-eight 'normal'-if-tiny 'Spanish guitar but for a small
>>>> gittern/mandore-type instrument.
>>>> There no hard evidence that the 4-course guitar was played in
Italy.
>>>> Monica
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Sean Smith" <[1][15]lutesm...@mac.com>
>>>> To: "lute" <[2][16]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
>>>> Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2013 10:51 PM
>>>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Calata de StrAmbotto
>>>> >
>>>> > Thanks for the reminder, Arthur. I knew about these but had
>>>> forgotten
>>>> them
>>>> > (too). It is more support that the little guitar was being
played
>>>> and
>>>> even
>>>> > written for.
>>>> >
>>>> > Sean
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > On Jan 20, 2013, at 2:32 PM, Arthur Ness wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > The link is at the very bttom.
>>>> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Arthur Ness"
>>>> <[3][17]arthurjn...@verizon.net>
>>>> > To: "Monica Hall" <[4][18]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>; "Sean Smith"
>>>> > <[5][19]lutesm...@mac.com>
>>>> > Cc: "Lutelist" <[6][20]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
>>>> > Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2013 5:21 PM
>>>> > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Calata de StrAmbotto
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >> Monica surely has simply forgotten about these Italian guitar
>>>> pieces.
>>>> >> Just four pieces in a century is virtually the same as saying
>>>> there
>>>> are
>>>> >> no pieces.<g>:
>>>> >> See [1][7][21]http://purl.org/rism/BI/1549/39 Sigs,
Gg24v-Hh1v (last
>>>> two
>>>> >> pages)<<<snip>>>
>>>> >> References
>>>> >> 1. [8][22]http://purl.org/rism/BI/1549/39
>>>> >> 2. mailto:[9][23]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
>>>> >> 3. mailto:[10][24]lutesm...@mac.com
>>>> >> 4. mailto:[11][25]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
>>>> >> 5. mailto:[12][26]lutesm...@mac.com
>>>> >> 6. mailto:[13][27]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
>>>> >> 7. mailto:[14][28]lutesm...@mac.com
>>>> >> 8. mailto:[15][29]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
>>>> >> 9.
[16][30]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>>> >>
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > To get on or off this list see list information at
>>>> > [17][31]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> References
>>>>
>>>> 1.
[32]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lutesm...@mac.com
>>>> 2.
[33]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
>>>> 3.
>>>>
[34]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=arthurjn...@verizon.ne
t
>>>> 4.
[35]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
>>>> 5.
[36]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lutesm...@mac.com
>>>> 6.
[37]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
>>>> 7. [38]http://purl.org/rism/BI/1549/39
>>>> 8. [39]http://purl.org/rism/BI/1549/39
>>>> 9.
[40]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
>>>> 10.
[41]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lutesm...@mac.com
>>>> 11.
[42]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
>>>> 12.
[43]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lutesm...@mac.com
>>>> 13.
[44]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
>>>> 14.
[45]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lutesm...@mac.com
>>>> 15.
[46]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
>>>> 16. [47]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>>> 17. [48]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> Dr. Gary R. Boye
>> Professor and Music Librarian
>> Appalachian State University
>
>
>
>
--
References
1. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lutesm...@mac.com
2. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
3. http://www.thecipher.com/viola_da_gamba_cipher-3.html
4. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=boy...@appstate.edu
5. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
6.
http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
7. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
8.
http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
9. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
10. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
11. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
12. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
13. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lutesm...@mac.com
14. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
15. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lutesm...@mac.com
16. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
17. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=arthurjn...@verizon.net
18. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
19. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lutesm...@mac.com
20. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
21. http://purl.org/rism/BI/1549/39
22. http://purl.org/rism/BI/1549/39
23. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
24. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lutesm...@mac.com
25. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
26. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lutesm...@mac.com
27. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
28. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lutesm...@mac.com
29. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
30. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
31. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
32. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lutesm...@mac.com
33. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
34. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=arthurjn...@verizon.net
35. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
36. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lutesm...@mac.com
37. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
38. http://purl.org/rism/BI/1549/39
39. http://purl.org/rism/BI/1549/39
40. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
41. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lutesm...@mac.com
42. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
43. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lutesm...@mac.com
44. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
45. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lutesm...@mac.com
46. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
47. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
48. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
