The point I was making was that it's not really 'odd' that a collection for primarily one instrument can contain a few pieces for another.
Muecci certainly has a view but perhaps not infallible..... rgds Martyn --- On Mon, 21/1/13, Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote: From: Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: 4 course guitar in Italy - was Calata de StrAmbotto To: "Martyn Hodgson" <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> Cc: "Lutelist" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Date: Monday, 21 January, 2013, 15:48 Well - feel free to get in touch with Signor Meucci and tell him what you think. For the rest of it the 4-course guitar is more closely related to the vihuela than to the lute so it is not surprising that two of the vihuela books should include a number of pieces for it or that Bermudo should devote a number of chapters in his magnum opus to describing it. Fuenllana actually refers to the instrument as "vihuela de quatro ordenes que dizen guitarra". - a 4-course vihuela which they call the guitar. Regards Monica ----- Original Message ----- From: "Martyn Hodgson" <[1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> To: "Monica Hall" <[2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> Cc: "Lutelist" <[3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Monday, January 21, 2013 2:48 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: 4 course guitar in Italy - was Calata de StrAmbotto > > Dear Monica, > > I don't find it odd that Barberiis included a few pieces for 4 course > guitar in his collection. Presumably he included them by way of a > sop/offering to those few players who played such an instrument as well > as lute; in much the same way as Mudarra and Fuenllana included a few > pieces for four course guitar in their respective books of vihuela > music. In all three collections the number of 4 course guitar pieces is > tiny compared with the other offerings for 6 course instruments (tho' > Fuenllana does, of course, also include a very few pieces for a 5 > course vihuela as an offering to players of this even more unusual > instrument....) > > rgds > > Martyn > --- On Mon, 21/1/13, Monica Hall <[4]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote: > > From: Monica Hall <[5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> > Subject: Re: [LUTE] 4 course guitar in Italy - was Calata de > StrAmbotto > To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[6]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> > Cc: "Lutelist" <[7]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> > Date: Monday, 21 January, 2013, 13:54 > > Well - obviously the 4-course guitar was played in Spain although the > extent > to which it was played in the contrapuntal manner suggested by the few > surviving pieces in Mudarra and Fuenllana is unknown. > The point which Meucci makes about Barberiis is that it is a bit odd > that a > printed collection of lute music should include just four pieces for an > instrument of a different type. There are references to the > "chitarra" > which clearly imply (if that's not a contradiction) that it was a small > lute. > The safest thing to say is that there is no surviving Italian > repertoire for > the 4-course guitar. > Monica > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Martyn Hodgson" <[1][8]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> > To: "Monica Hall" <[2][9]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> > Cc: "Lutelist" <[3][10]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> > Sent: Monday, January 21, 2013 11:28 AM > Subject: [LUTE] 4 course guitar in Italy - was Calata de StrAmbotto > > > > Dear Monica, > > > > You write 'There('s) no hard evidence that the 4-course guitar was > > played in Italy' and, of course, you're quite right. > > > > But it was played in Spain, then a major influence in all Hapsburg > > lands and in some Italian states as well as Naples. So I don't see > it > > being played in the leading maritime centre of Venice as > particularly > > far-fetched. And I'm referring to the figure of eight shaped > instrument > > - I think we're in danger of going a bit too far down the invisible > > path of supposing a mandora shaped guitar was the default. > > > > regards > > > > Martyn > > > > --- On Mon, 21/1/13, Monica Hall <[4][11]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote: > > > > From: Monica Hall <[5][12]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> > > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Calata de StrAmbotto > > To: "Sean Smith" <[6][13]lutesm...@mac.com> > > Cc: "Lutelist" <[7][14]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> > > Date: Monday, 21 January, 2013, 10:38 > > > > I am afraid the pieces in Barberiis are probably not for the > 4-course > > guitar > > but - as Stuart has kindly pointed out with the appropriate > reference - > > for > > a small 4-course lute or mandora. > > Renato Meucci, Da 'chitarra italiana' a 'chitarrone': una nuova > > interpretazione; in Enrico Radesca da Foggia e il suo tempo Atti > del > > Convegno di studi, Foggia 7-8 Aprile 2000, pp. 30 - 57. > > There is a case to be made that this music by Bareriis isn't for > > figure-of-eight 'normal'-if-tiny 'Spanish guitar but for a small > > gittern/mandore-type instrument. > > There no hard evidence that the 4-course guitar was played in > Italy. > > Monica > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Sean Smith" <[1][8][15]lutesm...@mac.com> > > To: "lute" <[2][9][16]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> > > Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2013 10:51 PM > > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Calata de StrAmbotto > > > > > > Thanks for the reminder, Arthur. I knew about these but had > forgotten > > them > > > (too). It is more support that the little guitar was being played > and > > even > > > written for. > > > > > > Sean > > > > > > > > > On Jan 20, 2013, at 2:32 PM, Arthur Ness wrote: > > > > > > The link is at the very bttom. > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Arthur Ness" > > <[3][10][17]arthurjn...@verizon.net> > > > To: "Monica Hall" <[4][11][18]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>; "Sean Smith" > > > <[5][12][19]lutesm...@mac.com> > > > Cc: "Lutelist" <[6][13][20]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> > > > Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2013 5:21 PM > > > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Calata de StrAmbotto > > > > > > > > >> Monica surely has simply forgotten about these Italian guitar > > pieces. > > >> Just four pieces in a century is virtually the same as saying > there > > are > > >> no pieces.<g>: > > >> See [1][7][14][21]http://purl.org/rism/BI/1549/39 Sigs, Gg24v-Hh1v > (last > > two > > >> pages)<<<snip>>> > > >> References > > >> 1. [8][15][22]http://purl.org/rism/BI/1549/39 > > >> 2. mailto:[9][16][23]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk > > >> 3. mailto:[10][17][24]lutesm...@mac.com > > >> 4. mailto:[11][18][25]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > > >> 5. mailto:[12][19][26]lutesm...@mac.com > > >> 6. mailto:[13][20][27]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > > >> 7. mailto:[14][21][28]lutesm...@mac.com > > >> 8. mailto:[15][22][29]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > > >> 9. > [16][23][30]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > > > [17][24][31]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > References > > > > 1. > [25][32]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lutesmith@mac. com > > 2. > [26][33]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmo uth.edu > > 3. > [27][34]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=arthurjness@ve rizon.ne > t > > 4. > [28][35]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlhall@tiscal i.co.uk > > 5. > [29][36]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lutesmith@mac. com > > 6. > [30][37]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmo uth.edu > > 7. [31][38]http://purl.org/rism/BI/1549/39 > > 8. [32][39]http://purl.org/rism/BI/1549/39 > > 9. > [33][40]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlhall@tiscal i.co.uk > > 10. > [34][41]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lutesmith@mac. com > > 11. > [35][42]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmo uth.edu > > 12. > [36][43]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lutesmith@mac. com > > 13. > [37][44]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmo uth.edu > > 14. > [38][45]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lutesmith@mac. com > > 15. > [39][46]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmo uth.edu > > 16. [40][47]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > 17. [41][48]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > -- > > References > > 1. [49]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co .uk > 2. [50]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk > 3. [51]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > 4. [52]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk > 5. [53]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk > 6. [54]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lutesm...@mac.com > 7. [55]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > 8. [56]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lutesm...@mac.com > 9. [57]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > 10. [58]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=arthurjn...@verizon.ne t > 11. [59]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk > 12. [60]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lutesm...@mac.com > 13. [61]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > 14. [62]http://purl.org/rism/BI/1549/39 > 15. [63]http://purl.org/rism/BI/1549/39 > 16. 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