Here's a better image of those instruments in the intarsia from the Palazzo Ducale in Mantua. Any guesses as to what the left stringed instrument is? A single strung vihuela de mano?
Could that be an ocarina below the double flute?? http://www.wga.hu/art/m/mola_ap/musical2.jpg Sean On Jan 21, 2013, at 10:01 AM, Monica Hall wrote: Interesting list. Most of them are late and do the sources actually say that the pieces are for guitar? In most cases it may just be that the tablature is 4 lines and the tuning matches. Tyler says of the first one that the pieces were probably copied in 1570s - but how does he know that? I have actually seen the manuscript in the Royal Academy of Music - in fact I have a copy of it. It is 17th century rather than 16th and it belonged to Robert Spencer. The 4-course music in Concerto Vago is for the chitarrino a quatro corde alla napolitana which may be a small lute or mandora. And as for Boetischer - well he is very unreliable - deliberately misrepresented things because he was a Nazi and anti-semitic. I have just been reading an article about Neusidler and he disparaged him for that reason. Best Monica ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary R. Boye" <boy...@appstate.edu> To: "Monica Hall" <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> Cc: "Martyn Hodgson" <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>; "Lutelist" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Monday, January 21, 2013 5:26 PM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: 4 course guitar in Italy - was Calata de StrAmbotto > Dear Monica, > > I have a few more sources listed for 4-course guitar with at least Italian > tablature, although possibly not all Italian: > > B-Bc MS LIt. XY no. 24135 [1570-1580 (tablature section)] > (Italy?) [not in RISM; see TYLER p. 31] > 4-course guitar in Italian tablature > > GB-Lam Ms. 645 [1625 and 1650] > "Italian manuscript in tablature for 4-course chitarra (ca.1625) and > single line tablature (?for violin)" (Italy) [not in RISM; see TYLER p. > 83] > 4-course guitar in Italian tablature > > Thomassini 1645 > Thomassini, Filippo, publisher. Conserto vago di balletti, volte, > corrente, et gagliarde, con la loro canzone alla franzese nuovamente posti > in luce per sonare con liuto, tiorba, et *chitarrino a quatro corde alla > napolitana* insieme, o soli ad arbitrio, e diletto de' virtuosi, et nobili > professori, o studiosi dei questo instromento (Rome, [Italy]: Filippo > Thomassini) > 8-course lute in Italian tablature > 11-course theorbo in Italian tablature > 4-course guitar in Italian tablature > > I-Fn Ms. Magliabechiano, classe XIX, codice 28 [1667-1700] > [RISM B/VII p. 107] > 4-course guitar in Italian tablature > > I-Fn Ms. Magliabechiano, classe XIX, codice 29 [1667-1700] > [RISM B/VII p. 108] > 4-course guitar in Italian tablature > *** > > These last two depend on Boetticher for the instrumentation--and I fully > realize how dangerous that is! I assume he merely counted the number of > courses required in the tablature, but somehow he was unable to do even > that in other circumstances. And perhaps the others are not the "real" 4c > guitar? > > Gary > > On 1/21/2013 8:54 AM, Monica Hall wrote: >> Well - obviously the 4-course guitar was played in Spain although the >> extent to which it was played in the contrapuntal manner suggested by >> the few surviving pieces in Mudarra and Fuenllana is unknown. >> >> The point which Meucci makes about Barberiis is that it is a bit odd >> that a printed collection of lute music should include just four pieces >> for an instrument of a different type. There are references to the >> "chitarra" which clearly imply (if that's not a contradiction) that it >> was a small lute. >> >> The safest thing to say is that there is no surviving Italian repertoire >> for the 4-course guitar. >> >> Monica >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Martyn Hodgson" >> <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> >> To: "Monica Hall" <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> >> Cc: "Lutelist" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> >> Sent: Monday, January 21, 2013 11:28 AM >> Subject: [LUTE] 4 course guitar in Italy - was Calata de StrAmbotto >> >> >>> >>> Dear Monica, >>> >>> You write 'There('s) no hard evidence that the 4-course guitar was >>> played in Italy' and, of course, you're quite right. >>> >>> But it was played in Spain, then a major influence in all Hapsburg >>> lands and in some Italian states as well as Naples. So I don't see it >>> being played in the leading maritime centre of Venice as particularly >>> far-fetched. And I'm referring to the figure of eight shaped >>> instrument >>> - I think we're in danger of going a bit too far down the invisible >>> path of supposing a mandora shaped guitar was the default. >>> >>> regards >>> >>> Martyn >>> >>> --- On Mon, 21/1/13, Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote: >>> >>> From: Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> >>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Calata de StrAmbotto >>> To: "Sean Smith" <lutesm...@mac.com> >>> Cc: "Lutelist" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> >>> Date: Monday, 21 January, 2013, 10:38 >>> >>> I am afraid the pieces in Barberiis are probably not for the 4-course >>> guitar >>> but - as Stuart has kindly pointed out with the appropriate >>> reference - >>> for >>> a small 4-course lute or mandora. >>> Renato Meucci, Da 'chitarra italiana' a 'chitarrone': una nuova >>> interpretazione; in Enrico Radesca da Foggia e il suo tempo Atti del >>> Convegno di studi, Foggia 7-8 Aprile 2000, pp. 30 - 57. >>> There is a case to be made that this music by Bareriis isn't for >>> figure-of-eight 'normal'-if-tiny 'Spanish guitar but for a small >>> gittern/mandore-type instrument. >>> There no hard evidence that the 4-course guitar was played in Italy. >>> Monica >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Sean Smith" <[1]lutesm...@mac.com> >>> To: "lute" <[2]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> >>> Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2013 10:51 PM >>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Calata de StrAmbotto >>>> >>>> Thanks for the reminder, Arthur. I knew about these but had >>> forgotten >>> them >>>> (too). It is more support that the little guitar was being played >>> and >>> even >>>> written for. >>>> >>>> Sean >>>> >>>> >>>> On Jan 20, 2013, at 2:32 PM, Arthur Ness wrote: >>>> >>>> The link is at the very bttom. >>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Arthur Ness" >>> <[3]arthurjn...@verizon.net> >>>> To: "Monica Hall" <[4]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>; "Sean Smith" >>>> <[5]lutesm...@mac.com> >>>> Cc: "Lutelist" <[6]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> >>>> Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2013 5:21 PM >>>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Calata de StrAmbotto >>>> >>>> >>>>> Monica surely has simply forgotten about these Italian guitar >>> pieces. >>>>> Just four pieces in a century is virtually the same as saying >>> there >>> are >>>>> no pieces.<g>: >>>>> See [1][7]http://purl.org/rism/BI/1549/39 Sigs, Gg24v-Hh1v (last >>> two >>>>> pages)<<<snip>>> >>>>> References >>>>> 1. [8]http://purl.org/rism/BI/1549/39 >>>>> 2. mailto:[9]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk >>>>> 3. mailto:[10]lutesm...@mac.com >>>>> 4. mailto:[11]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >>>>> 5. mailto:[12]lutesm...@mac.com >>>>> 6. mailto:[13]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >>>>> 7. mailto:[14]lutesm...@mac.com >>>>> 8. mailto:[15]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >>>>> 9. [16]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> To get on or off this list see list information at >>>> [17]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>>> >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> References >>> >>> 1. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lutesm...@mac.com >>> 2. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >>> 3. >>> http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=arthurjn...@verizon.net >>> 4. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk >>> 5. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lutesm...@mac.com >>> 6. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >>> 7. http://purl.org/rism/BI/1549/39 >>> 8. http://purl.org/rism/BI/1549/39 >>> 9. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk >>> 10. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lutesm...@mac.com >>> 11. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >>> 12. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lutesm...@mac.com >>> 13. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >>> 14. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lutesm...@mac.com >>> 15. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >>> 16. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>> 17. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>> >> >> > > -- > Dr. Gary R. Boye > Professor and Music Librarian > Appalachian State University
