Dear David,
You are probably right - forget the papal rose line. Though perhaps the
rose reference is some personal link known to those around G at the
time. But perhaps a gilded rose is likely - I'm just cautious about
proceeding from speculation to certainty............
It does sound, tho', as if the thing had been nicked!
regards
Martyn
__________________________________________________________________
From: David Van Edwards <[email protected]>
To: Martyn Hodgson <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, 22 June 2013, 10:30
Subject: [LUTE] Re: The "golden" rose
Dear Martyn,
Thank you very much for the reference, it would have taken me ages to
find starting from the beginning!!
But apropos your ideas of The Golden Rose Lute referring to the Papal
golden rose there are these words following the Gaultier piece quoted:
"The first part of the lesson representeth the enquiry after the lute,
and kind promises for those that shall give any notice of it; the
second part representeth first the trouble and hurly-burly of the
seeking after the lute; and the conclusion is a complaint of the loss
of the lute that can not be found. "
Which does sound to me rather specific to an instrument.
Of course it could be symbolic in some obscure way but the references
to the papal golden rose you sent do not contain any idea of loss,
rather the reverse, since the rose itself seems to refer to the
resurrection and the blessings that follow. Any loss of those would
rather undermine the whole edifice of Christianity!
Best wishes,
David
Dear David,
The piece appears in Chapter XV (f.69-87) of the MS 'Concerning
the art
of setting Lessons uppon the Lute'.
I'm not sure if you'll find anything to elaborate on what
precisely was
meant by the 'golden rose' lute (ie an actual gilded rose or
possibly
some other association), since it says nothing about the 'Golden
Rose
Lute' itself but merely precedes the relevant piece with the
words: 'The loss of the golden rose lute; a lesson of Old
Gaultier upon
the goat's tuning'
Incidentally, you may find Dart's modern transcription (which is
accurate as far as I can see) easier to read; it appeared in the
1958
Galpin Soc journal.
regards
Martyn
__________________________________________________________________
From: Martyn Hodgson <[email protected]>
To: Lute Dmth <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, 21 June 2013, 16:37
Subject: [LUTE] Re: The "golden" rose
----- Forwarded Message -----
From: Martyn Hodgson <[1][email protected]>
To: David Van Edwards <[2][email protected]>
Cc: 'LuteNet list' <[3][email protected]>
Sent: Friday, 21 June 2013, 8:16
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: The "golden" rose
Dear David,
I was under the, perhaps wholly mistaken, impression that 'The
loss
of
the golden rose lute' found in the Burwell MS was some other
association rather then the actual gilding of the lute rose.
For
example it could be linked to the papal rose of the name, see
[1][4]http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06629a.htm
or
[2][5]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rose
Or maybe other associations from antiquity. Just a
thought...................
regards
Martyn
__________________________________________________________________
From: David Van Edwards <[6][email protected]>
To: Luca Manassero <[7][email protected]>
Cc: 'LuteNet list' <[8][email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, 20 June 2013, 20:13
Subject: [LUTE] Re: The "golden" rose
Dear Luca,
Yes there are 8 surviving lutes that I know of with gilded
roses.
1. The 16th century lute by Wolfgang Wolf
currently in Fuessen Museum has a gilded rose.
Impossible to say if it is original as it has
certainly been roughly gilded since then.
2.Lute by Jakob Langenwalder [Fuessen 1627] in Kremsmuenster,
Benediktinerstift
3.Lute by Georg Greiff [Fuessen 1590] in
Darmstadt, Hessisches Landesmuseum Kg 67: 103
(Orig M.I. 29)
4. Miniature lute by Magno Dieffobruchar, Venice,
c.1600 in Paris, Musee de Cluny 2092
5. Lute by Stefan Pradter, Prague 1675 in Innsbruck, Schloss
Ambras,
622
6. Lute by Basilio Smit, Milan, in Fuessen, Museum
der Stadt Fuessen, 4308 has a gilded rim to its
triple rose.
7. Lute by Magnus Hellmer 1609 Fuessen, in
Darmstadt, Hessisches Landesmuseum, Kg 67:104
8. Anonymous lute in Bologna, Museo Civico Medievale, 1814
Best wishes,
David
At 16:11 +0200 20/6/13, Luca Manassero wrote:
> Dear list,
> a few years ago I saw pictures of a lute built by a
well
known
> british lutemaker and showing a really beautiful golden
rose.
> Baroque lutenists certainly know about the Allemande of
Ennemond
> Gaultier (Vieux Gaultier) "La roze d'or" also known as
"The loss
of the
> golden rose lute".
> My question is: have you any news (or iconographc
evidence) of
> (original) lutes with a golden rose?
> Thank you in advance,
> Luca
>
>
>To get on or off this list see list information at
>[3][9]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
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6 Whitwell Road,
Norwich, NR1 4HB
England.
Telephone: + 44 (0)1603 629899
Website: [4][10]http://www.vanedwards.co.uk
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References
1. [11]http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06629a.htm
2. [12]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rose
3. [13]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
4. [14]http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/
--
References
1. mailto:[email protected]
2. mailto:[email protected]
3. mailto:[email protected]
4. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06629a.htm
5. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rose
6. mailto:[email protected]
7. mailto:[email protected]
8. mailto:[email protected]
9. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
10. http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/
11. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06629a.htm
12. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rose
13. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
14. http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/
--
The Smokehouse,
6 Whitwell Road,
Norwich, NR1 4HB
England.
Telephone: + 44 (0)1603 629899
Website: http://www.vanedwards.co.uk
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