Yes. I thought Diana Poulton demonstrated that the lute was present in Spain throughout the 16th century in her article, The Lute in Christian Spain. Lute Society Journal 19 (1977): 34-49. I always thought the vihuela was more popular in Spain because it was more graceful to play while wearing those silly outfits. RA > Date: Wed, 6 May 2015 20:18:28 +0100 > To: seifertm...@att.net > CC: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > From: mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy > > Briefly - I think the idea that the Spanish didn't like the lute because it > had Moorish associations is a rather silly myth. > Monica > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mark Seifert" <seifertm...@att.net> > To: "Ron Andrico" <praelu...@hotmail.com>; "Christopher Wilke" > <chriswi...@cs.dartmouth.edu>; "Dan Winheld" <dwinh...@lmi.net>; "Rob > MacKillop" <robmackil...@gmail.com>; "Howard Posner" > <howardpos...@ca.rr.com>; "David Van Ooijen" <davidvanooi...@gmail.com> > Cc: "'Lutelist'" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> > Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 2015 1:51 PM > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy > > > > Regarding the Spain versus rest-of-Europe issue ( a most fascinating > > topic--thanks for introducing it, Robert Barto ), English Prof Brittany > > Hughes said that one reason the Spanish kings/queens so brutally > > expelled or forced conversion on the "Moors" (1523 was an important > > date of escalation, and then the worst of the Inquisition was imposed > > in 1609) was that the Turks liked to raid the coast of Spain from their > > ships, escalating anti-Muslim hatred throughout this period. She > > didn't mention why the Jews were so oppressed, as they seem like > > innocent bystanders. I wonder if they also tried to eliminate the > > lute, because it was seen as a Moorish instrument, or the lute belly > > reminded them of something really evil, like the belly of a pregnant > > woman, heaven forbid. > > In defense of Spain, Dr. Teofilo Ruiz of UCLA in his "Terror of > > History" course said that the Spanish ended their witch hunting decades > > before England and Germany (and America). Maybe the adverse effects of > > eliminating Jews and Muslims helped them realize that getting rid of > > all their witches wouldn't improve anything. > > I had a really spooky/scary experience in 1973 after I got a minimum > > wage job vacuuming dust off the books in the dark stacks of Widener > > Library (built after the Titanic went down in honor of a son of a > > Boston Brahmin family). Was sitting on the cold concrete floor dusting > > a row of books when I encountered a black leather clad tome whose > > binding showed one word, my last name spelled correctly, and the date > > "1728" in silver Gothic letters. Shocked and amazed, I pulled it out, > > opened it and discovered it was a baroque legal textbook discussing in > > incredible detail some issues regarding die Hexen. Though I was > > studying German at the time, I couldn't quite figure out if it covered > > how to identify/prosecute or how to defend/absolve the witches! There > > were columns and tables of criteria, and even some numbers. I suspect > > the botched Salem trials and executions before the turn of the century > > caused Germans concern so they wanted to do a better legal job than the > > crazed Massachusetts clerics. Talk about having a skeleton in one's > > family's ancestral closet. I tried later to access that volume on > > line, but the book appears to be gone. Since classes had ended, I > > didn't take the book to my German teacher Herr Reller, but I also > > feared what the book might contain. I believe by 1728 the Spanish had > > gotten over any obsession about Hexen, but not yet England and Germany. > > Mark Seifert > > On Wednesday, May 6, 2015 4:07 AM, Mathias RAP:sel > > <mathias.roe...@t-online.de> wrote: > > Read Hillary Mantel on that topic, you'll get another view. > > Mathias > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu > > [mailto:[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of > > > Chris Barker > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 6:11 PM > > > To: 'Monica Hall'; 'Edward Chrysogonus Yong' > > > Cc: 'Lutelist' > > > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy > > > > > > I agree on Thomas Cromwell as well! Had Henry VIII not been king at > > that time I'd > > > call him a thug too! > > > > > > Chris > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: [3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu > > [mailto:[4]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of > > > Monica Hall > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 9:19 AM > > > To: Edward Chrysogonus Yong > > > Cc: Lutelist > > > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy > > > > > > Yes - Simon Schama has likened Cromwell and his supporters to the > > Taliban in > > > Afghanistan. > > > They were certainly responsible for destroying some of our cultural > > heritage. > > > And Thomas Cromwell a century earlier was just an avaricious thug. > > > Monica > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Edward Chrysogonus Yong" <[5]edward.y...@gmail.com> > > > To: "Mark Wheeler" <[6]l...@pantagruel.de> > > > Cc: "Monica Hall" <[7]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>; "ml" > > <[8]man...@manololaguillo.com>; > > > "Lutelist" <[9]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 10:55 AM > > > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy > > > > > > > > > > > > > > England falling to 16th C Catholic Spain may have been better for > > > > music and culture than falling to Cromwell and the Puritans, just > > saying... > > > > > > > > ======== > > > > > > > > II?III? I.I>>IuI-oIII?I 1/2I^1I-oII 1/2 II+-III'II?I 1/4IuI-I?I 1/2 > > IuI-o IuI-I|II 1/2I?I IuI 1/4IuI IuIII 1/4II,I.. > > > > HA| litterA| electronicA| ab iPhono missA| sunt. > > > > aeCURe>>aaeuae>>P:c, 1/4eae-oe-aaa 3/4iPhonea > > > > This e-mail was sent from my iPhone. > > > > > > > >> On 5 May 2015, at 4:40 pm, Mark Wheeler <[10]l...@pantagruel.de> > > wrote: > > > >> > > > >> Regarding Elizabeth I's racism here is an interesting article > > > >> > > > >> [11]https://www.press.jhu.edu/timeline/sel/Bartels_2006.pdf > > > >> > > > >> What Monica says about not judging the past by an inappropriate > > set > > > >> of criteria is true and is also appropriate to the "racism" of the > > > >> English Queen. > > > >> > > > >> It may not be PC, but I personally am exceedingly happy that > > England > > > >> did not fall to 16th century Catholic Spain! > > > >> > > > >> All the best > > > >> Mark > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >>> On May 5, 2015, at 9:41 AM, Monica Hall wrote: > > > >>> > > > >>> Yes - you are right. We shouldn't judge the past by an > > > >>> inappropriate set of criteria. > > > >>> Spain has got a bad press in the English speaking world because > > most > > > >>> of us study history from an English/Northern Europe point of > > view. > > > >>> Queen Elizabeth I was a racist - want to expel all coloured > > people > > > >>> from England. So was Shakespeare. Jews are always villains. > > > >>> > > > >>> Monica briefly > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "ml" > > <[12]man...@manololaguillo.com> > > > >>> To: "LUTELIST List" <[13]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> > > > >>> Sent: Monday, May 04, 2015 8:53 PM > > > >>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>>> Spain was not an exception regarding free vs. conservative > > > >>>> thinking. I mean, Spain was not more conservative than England > > or > > > >>>> France, in regard to what is right or wrong in religion, > > morality > > > >>>> (for instance > > > >>>> sexuality.) and so on. Fear was (and is) the explication of > > nearly > > > >>>> everything. > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Perhaps Jean Delumeau (La peur en Occident, Fayard, 1978) hits > > the > > > >>>> nail when he says, concluding his wonderful book, that Satan was > > > >>>> seen everywhere. He is the enemy, he inspires the turks, the > > > >>>> witches, the heresies, the plagues, etc. When the attention is > > > >>>> focused on jews and 'moriscos' (that is what happens in Spain), > > the > > > >>>> witches are not so closely monitorized. In other european > > > >>>> countries, not so much worried with jews, heresies (here the > > > >>>> protestants, there the catholics) were prosecuted instead. Only > > two > > > >>>> countries, Delumeau continues, "escaped from this general fear: > > > >>>> Poland and Italy. The latter perhaps because of being more pagan > > > >>>> than his neighbors (that was Erasmus' opinion), or because the > > > >>>> church was controlling it better than elsewhere. In any case, it > > > >>>> seems that Italy lost his mind because of these fears in a > > lesser degree than > > > other countries." > > > >>>> > > > >>>> But. if we read Carlo Ginzburg's Il formaggio e i fermi. Il > > cosmo > > > >>>> di un mugnaio del '500 (1976), a seminal work in micro-history, > > > >>>> Italy suffered under the inquisition as well. > > > >>>> Galileo's case is of course very well known. > > > >>>> > > > >>>> It's all too easy to project from our present time to that past. > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Regards from Barcelona, dear lute friends. :-) > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Manolo > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>>> El 04/05/2015, a las 19:27, Sean Smith <[14]lutesm...@mac.com> > > escribiA^3: > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> That's what I'm thinking, too. The very first piece in Dalza's > > > >>>>> book is the Caldibi Castigliano and it certainly points to a > > > >>>>> refined and complex idiom unlike anything else in his Ferrerese > > or > > > >>>>> Venetiana dance cycles. > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> Sean > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> On May 4, 2015, at 9:52 AM, Gary Boye wrote: > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> A word of caution here: > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> We are making judgements based primarily on the printed > > evidence > > > >>>>> (i.e., the 7 main vihuela tablatures); there was a great deal > > of > > > >>>>> music (most of it!) that took place in Spain outside of these > > > >>>>> formal, published works. > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> Publishing was a big deal in the 16th century. Getting an > > > >>>>> imprimatur from a conservative and literally Inquisitorial > > > >>>>> government was unlikely with a large collection of dance music; > > > >>>>> much easier to play it conservative and stick to sacred > > > >>>>> intabulations. The vihuela manuscripts hint at a wider > > repertoire, > > > >>>>> as does the existence of guitar music from a later period. Who > > > >>>>> knows what was happening on the streets, but the Inquisition > > > >>>>> wouldn't have had much to do if everyone in Spain was a > > straight-laced as > > > the vihuela tablatures make it seem . > > > >>>>> . . > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> Gary > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> Dr. Gary R. Boye > > > >>>>> Professor and Music Librarian > > > >>>>> Appalachian State University > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>>> On 5/4/2015 12:37 PM, Dan Winheld wrote: > > > >>>>>> In other words, because the only two ethnic/cultural groups > > that > > > >>>>>> had any rhythm were invited to leave the premises at once. It > > was > > > >>>>>> said that when all the Jewish & Moorish doctors, scholars, > > > >>>>>> scientists, and artists & academics showed up on his doorstep, > > > >>>>>> the Sultan of Turkey asked "Has the King of Spain lost his > > mind?" > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> Lacking some rhythm myself, I do enjoy the all the great > > vihuela > > > >>>>>> music a lot- but even I have to sometimes "move" over to Italy > > & > > > >>>>>> Germany for a little jumping around. > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> Dan > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> On 5/4/2015 3:36 AM, Ron Andrico wrote: > > > >>>>>>> Well, the first answer that springs to mind is because Spain > > had > > > >>>>>>> recently kicked out all the dance musicians, who had moved to > > Italy. > > > >>>>>>> They were left with a bunch of upwardly mobile courtiers > > > >>>>>>> (Milan), and serious-minded priests with so much time on > > their > > > >>>>>>> hands that they intabulated every piece of vocal polyphony > > they > > > >>>>>>> could put their hands on. > > > >>>>>>> Actually, there is quite a bit of dance music in Fuenllana's > > > >>>>>>> print, some but much less in the other six published books. > > > >>>>>>> Also, there was quite a bit of dance music evident in Naples, > > > >>>>>>> which was Spanish at the time. > > > >>>>>>> RA > > > >>>>>>>> Date: Mon, 4 May 2015 09:29:52 +0200 > > > >>>>>>>> To: [15]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > > > >>>>>>>> From: [16]r.ba...@gmx.de > > > >>>>>>>> Subject: [LUTE] Spain vs. Italy > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> Hi all, > > > >>>>>>>> In the early 1500s, why are dances so common in Italian lute > > > >>>>>>>> music > > > >>>>>>> and > > > >>>>>>>> so rare in the vihuela rep. ? > > > >>>>>>>> Thanks > > > >>>>>>>> -- > > > >>>>>>>> Sent from my Android phone with GMX Mail. Please excuse my > > brevity. > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> To get on or off this list see list information at > > > >>>>>>>> [17]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> -- > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> -- > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > References > > > > 1. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu > > 2. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu > > 3. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu > > 4. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu > > 5. mailto:edward.y...@gmail.com > > 6. mailto:l...@pantagruel.de > > 7. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk > > 8. mailto:man...@manololaguillo.com > > 9. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > > 10. mailto:l...@pantagruel.de > > 11. https://www.press.jhu.edu/timeline/sel/Bartels_2006.pdf > > 12. mailto:man...@manololaguillo.com > > 13. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > > 14. mailto:lutesm...@mac.com > > 15. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > > 16. mailto:r.ba...@gmx.de > > 17. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > >
--
