-----Original Message-----
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
Behalf Of
Chris Barker
Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 6:11 PM
To: 'Monica Hall'; 'Edward Chrysogonus Yong'
Cc: 'Lutelist'
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy
I agree on Thomas Cromwell as well! Had Henry VIII not been king at that
time I'd
call him a thug too!
Chris
-----Original Message-----
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
Behalf Of
Monica Hall
Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 9:19 AM
To: Edward Chrysogonus Yong
Cc: Lutelist
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy
Yes - Simon Schama has likened Cromwell and his supporters to the Taliban
in
Afghanistan.
They were certainly responsible for destroying some of our cultural
heritage.
And Thomas Cromwell a century earlier was just an avaricious thug.
Monica
----- Original Message -----
From: "Edward Chrysogonus Yong" <edward.y...@gmail.com>
To: "Mark Wheeler" <l...@pantagruel.de>
Cc: "Monica Hall" <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>; "ml"
<man...@manololaguillo.com>;
"Lutelist" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 10:55 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy
>
> England falling to 16th C Catholic Spain may have been better for
> music and culture than falling to Cromwell and the Puritans, just
> saying...
>
> ========
>
> τούτο ηλεκτρονικόν ταχυδρομείον εκ είΦωνου εμεύ επέμφθη.
> Hæ litteræ electronicæ ab iPhono missæ sunt.
> 此電子郵件發送于自吾iPhone。
> This e-mail was sent from my iPhone.
>
>> On 5 May 2015, at 4:40 pm, Mark Wheeler <l...@pantagruel.de> wrote:
>>
>> Regarding Elizabeth I's racism here is an interesting article
>>
>> https://www.press.jhu.edu/timeline/sel/Bartels_2006.pdf
>>
>> What Monica says about not judging the past by an inappropriate set
>> of criteria is true and is also appropriate to the "racism" of the
>> English Queen.
>>
>> It may not be PC, but I personally am exceedingly happy that England
>> did not fall to 16th century Catholic Spain!
>>
>> All the best
>> Mark
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On May 5, 2015, at 9:41 AM, Monica Hall wrote:
>>>
>>> Yes - you are right. We shouldn't judge the past by an
>>> inappropriate set of criteria.
>>> Spain has got a bad press in the English speaking world because most
>>> of us study history from an English/Northern Europe point of view.
>>> Queen Elizabeth I was a racist - want to expel all coloured people
>>> from England. So was Shakespeare. Jews are always villains.
>>>
>>> Monica briefly
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "ml" <man...@manololaguillo.com>
>>> To: "LUTELIST List" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
>>> Sent: Monday, May 04, 2015 8:53 PM
>>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy
>>>
>>>
>>>> Spain was not an exception regarding free vs. conservative
>>>> thinking. I mean, Spain was not more conservative than England or
>>>> France, in regard to what is right or wrong in religion, morality
>>>> (for instance
>>>> sexuality.) and so on. Fear was (and is) the explication of nearly
>>>> everything.
>>>>
>>>> Perhaps Jean Delumeau (La peur en Occident, Fayard, 1978) hits the
>>>> nail when he says, concluding his wonderful book, that Satan was
>>>> seen everywhere. He is the enemy, he inspires the turks, the
>>>> witches, the heresies, the plagues, etc. When the attention is
>>>> focused on jews and 'moriscos' (that is what happens in Spain), the
>>>> witches are not so closely monitorized. In other european
>>>> countries, not so much worried with jews, heresies (here the
>>>> protestants, there the catholics) were prosecuted instead. Only two
>>>> countries, Delumeau continues, "escaped from this general fear:
>>>> Poland and Italy. The latter perhaps because of being more pagan
>>>> than his neighbors (that was Erasmus' opinion), or because the
>>>> church was controlling it better than elsewhere. In any case, it
>>>> seems that Italy lost his mind because of these fears in a lesser
>>>> degree than
other countries."
>>>>
>>>> But. if we read Carlo Ginzburg's Il formaggio e i fermi. Il cosmo
>>>> di un mugnaio del '500 (1976), a seminal work in micro-history,
>>>> Italy suffered under the inquisition as well.
>>>> Galileo's case is of course very well known.
>>>>
>>>> It's all too easy to project from our present time to that past.
>>>>
>>>> Regards from Barcelona, dear lute friends. :-)
>>>>
>>>> Manolo
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> El 04/05/2015, a las 19:27, Sean Smith <lutesm...@mac.com>
>>>>> escribió:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> That's what I'm thinking, too. The very first piece in Dalza's
>>>>> book is the Caldibi Castigliano and it certainly points to a
>>>>> refined and complex idiom unlike anything else in his Ferrerese or
>>>>> Venetiana dance cycles.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sean
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On May 4, 2015, at 9:52 AM, Gary Boye wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> A word of caution here:
>>>>>
>>>>> We are making judgements based primarily on the printed evidence
>>>>> (i.e., the 7 main vihuela tablatures); there was a great deal of
>>>>> music (most of it!) that took place in Spain outside of these
>>>>> formal, published works.
>>>>>
>>>>> Publishing was a big deal in the 16th century. Getting an
>>>>> imprimatur from a conservative and literally Inquisitorial
>>>>> government was unlikely with a large collection of dance music;
>>>>> much easier to play it conservative and stick to sacred
>>>>> intabulations. The vihuela manuscripts hint at a wider repertoire,
>>>>> as does the existence of guitar music from a later period. Who
>>>>> knows what was happening on the streets, but the Inquisition
>>>>> wouldn't have had much to do if everyone in Spain was a
>>>>> straight-laced as
the vihuela tablatures make it seem .
>>>>> . .
>>>>>
>>>>> Gary
>>>>>
>>>>> Dr. Gary R. Boye
>>>>> Professor and Music Librarian
>>>>> Appalachian State University
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 5/4/2015 12:37 PM, Dan Winheld wrote:
>>>>>> In other words, because the only two ethnic/cultural groups that
>>>>>> had any rhythm were invited to leave the premises at once. It was
>>>>>> said that when all the Jewish & Moorish doctors, scholars,
>>>>>> scientists, and artists & academics showed up on his doorstep,
>>>>>> the Sultan of Turkey asked "Has the King of Spain lost his mind?"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lacking some rhythm myself, I do enjoy the all the great vihuela
>>>>>> music a lot- but even I have to sometimes "move" over to Italy &
>>>>>> Germany for a little jumping around.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dan
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 5/4/2015 3:36 AM, Ron Andrico wrote:
>>>>>>> Well, the first answer that springs to mind is because Spain had
>>>>>>> recently kicked out all the dance musicians, who had moved to
>>>>>>> Italy.
>>>>>>> They were left with a bunch of upwardly mobile courtiers
>>>>>>> (Milan), and serious-minded priests with so much time on their
>>>>>>> hands that they intabulated every piece of vocal polyphony they
>>>>>>> could put their hands on.
>>>>>>> Actually, there is quite a bit of dance music in Fuenllana's
>>>>>>> print, some but much less in the other six published books.
>>>>>>> Also, there was quite a bit of dance music evident in Naples,
>>>>>>> which was Spanish at the time.
>>>>>>> RA
>>>>>>>> Date: Mon, 4 May 2015 09:29:52 +0200
>>>>>>>> To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
>>>>>>>> From: r.ba...@gmx.de
>>>>>>>> Subject: [LUTE] Spain vs. Italy
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>>> In the early 1500s, why are dances so common in Italian lute
>>>>>>>> music
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> so rare in the vihuela rep. ?
>>>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Sent from my Android phone with GMX Mail. Please excuse my
>>>>>>>> brevity.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>>>>>>>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>
>>
>>
>
>
