I have always heard that the Spanish preferred the vihuela because it was shaped like their native guitar, and that the lute's (oud's) Moorish association was a widespread prejudice. I have read this in several treatises. That doesn't necessarily make it true though. Anybody can write anything they wish.
Best, Chris -----Original Message----- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Monica Hall Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 2015 2:18 PM To: Mark Seifert Cc: Lutelist Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy Briefly - I think the idea that the Spanish didn't like the lute because it had Moorish associations is a rather silly myth. Monica ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Seifert" <seifertm...@att.net> To: "Ron Andrico" <praelu...@hotmail.com>; "Christopher Wilke" <chriswi...@cs.dartmouth.edu>; "Dan Winheld" <dwinh...@lmi.net>; "Rob MacKillop" <robmackil...@gmail.com>; "Howard Posner" <howardpos...@ca.rr.com>; "David Van Ooijen" <davidvanooi...@gmail.com> Cc: "'Lutelist'" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 2015 1:51 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy > Regarding the Spain versus rest-of-Europe issue ( a most fascinating > topic--thanks for introducing it, Robert Barto ), English Prof Brittany > Hughes said that one reason the Spanish kings/queens so brutally > expelled or forced conversion on the "Moors" (1523 was an important > date of escalation, and then the worst of the Inquisition was imposed > in 1609) was that the Turks liked to raid the coast of Spain from their > ships, escalating anti-Muslim hatred throughout this period. She > didn't mention why the Jews were so oppressed, as they seem like > innocent bystanders. I wonder if they also tried to eliminate the > lute, because it was seen as a Moorish instrument, or the lute belly > reminded them of something really evil, like the belly of a pregnant > woman, heaven forbid. > In defense of Spain, Dr. Teofilo Ruiz of UCLA in his "Terror of > History" course said that the Spanish ended their witch hunting decades > before England and Germany (and America). Maybe the adverse effects of > eliminating Jews and Muslims helped them realize that getting rid of > all their witches wouldn't improve anything. > I had a really spooky/scary experience in 1973 after I got a minimum > wage job vacuuming dust off the books in the dark stacks of Widener > Library (built after the Titanic went down in honor of a son of a > Boston Brahmin family). Was sitting on the cold concrete floor dusting > a row of books when I encountered a black leather clad tome whose > binding showed one word, my last name spelled correctly, and the date > "1728" in silver Gothic letters. Shocked and amazed, I pulled it out, > opened it and discovered it was a baroque legal textbook discussing in > incredible detail some issues regarding die Hexen. Though I was > studying German at the time, I couldn't quite figure out if it covered > how to identify/prosecute or how to defend/absolve the witches! There > were columns and tables of criteria, and even some numbers. I suspect > the botched Salem trials and executions before the turn of the century > caused Germans concern so they wanted to do a better legal job than the > crazed Massachusetts clerics. Talk about having a skeleton in one's > family's ancestral closet. I tried later to access that volume on > line, but the book appears to be gone. Since classes had ended, I > didn't take the book to my German teacher Herr Reller, but I also > feared what the book might contain. I believe by 1728 the Spanish had > gotten over any obsession about Hexen, but not yet England and Germany. > Mark Seifert > On Wednesday, May 6, 2015 4:07 AM, Mathias RAP:sel > <mathias.roe...@t-online.de> wrote: > Read Hillary Mantel on that topic, you'll get another view. > Mathias > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu > [mailto:[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of > > Chris Barker > > Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 6:11 PM > > To: 'Monica Hall'; 'Edward Chrysogonus Yong' > > Cc: 'Lutelist' > > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy > > > > I agree on Thomas Cromwell as well! Had Henry VIII not been king at > that time I'd > > call him a thug too! > > > > Chris > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu > [mailto:[4]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of > > Monica Hall > > Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 9:19 AM > > To: Edward Chrysogonus Yong > > Cc: Lutelist > > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy > > > > Yes - Simon Schama has likened Cromwell and his supporters to the > Taliban in > > Afghanistan. > > They were certainly responsible for destroying some of our cultural > heritage. > > And Thomas Cromwell a century earlier was just an avaricious thug. > > Monica > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Edward Chrysogonus Yong" <[5]edward.y...@gmail.com> > > To: "Mark Wheeler" <[6]l...@pantagruel.de> > > Cc: "Monica Hall" <[7]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>; "ml" > <[8]man...@manololaguillo.com>; > > "Lutelist" <[9]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> > > Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 10:55 AM > > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy > > > > > > > > > > England falling to 16th C Catholic Spain may have been better for > > > music and culture than falling to Cromwell and the Puritans, just > saying... > > > > > > ======== > > > > > > II?III? I.I>>IuI-oIII?I 1/2I^1I-oII 1/2 II+-III'II?I 1/4IuI-I?I 1/2 > IuI-o IuI-I|II 1/2I?I IuI 1/4IuI IuIII 1/4II,I.. > > > HA| litterA| electronicA| ab iPhono missA| sunt. > > > aeCURe>>aaeuae>>P:c, 1/4eae-oe-aaa 3/4iPhonea > > > This e-mail was sent from my iPhone. > > > > > >> On 5 May 2015, at 4:40 pm, Mark Wheeler <[10]l...@pantagruel.de> > wrote: > > >> > > >> Regarding Elizabeth I's racism here is an interesting article > > >> > > >> [11]https://www.press.jhu.edu/timeline/sel/Bartels_2006.pdf > > >> > > >> What Monica says about not judging the past by an inappropriate > set > > >> of criteria is true and is also appropriate to the "racism" of the > > >> English Queen. > > >> > > >> It may not be PC, but I personally am exceedingly happy that > England > > >> did not fall to 16th century Catholic Spain! > > >> > > >> All the best > > >> Mark > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >>> On May 5, 2015, at 9:41 AM, Monica Hall wrote: > > >>> > > >>> Yes - you are right. We shouldn't judge the past by an > > >>> inappropriate set of criteria. > > >>> Spain has got a bad press in the English speaking world because > most > > >>> of us study history from an English/Northern Europe point of > view. > > >>> Queen Elizabeth I was a racist - want to expel all coloured > people > > >>> from England. So was Shakespeare. Jews are always villains. > > >>> > > >>> Monica briefly > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "ml" > <[12]man...@manololaguillo.com> > > >>> To: "LUTELIST List" <[13]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> > > >>> Sent: Monday, May 04, 2015 8:53 PM > > >>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy > > >>> > > >>> > > >>>> Spain was not an exception regarding free vs. conservative > > >>>> thinking. I mean, Spain was not more conservative than England > or > > >>>> France, in regard to what is right or wrong in religion, > morality > > >>>> (for instance > > >>>> sexuality.) and so on. Fear was (and is) the explication of > nearly > > >>>> everything. > > >>>> > > >>>> Perhaps Jean Delumeau (La peur en Occident, Fayard, 1978) hits > the > > >>>> nail when he says, concluding his wonderful book, that Satan was > > >>>> seen everywhere. He is the enemy, he inspires the turks, the > > >>>> witches, the heresies, the plagues, etc. When the attention is > > >>>> focused on jews and 'moriscos' (that is what happens in Spain), > the > > >>>> witches are not so closely monitorized. In other european > > >>>> countries, not so much worried with jews, heresies (here the > > >>>> protestants, there the catholics) were prosecuted instead. Only > two > > >>>> countries, Delumeau continues, "escaped from this general fear: > > >>>> Poland and Italy. The latter perhaps because of being more pagan > > >>>> than his neighbors (that was Erasmus' opinion), or because the > > >>>> church was controlling it better than elsewhere. In any case, it > > >>>> seems that Italy lost his mind because of these fears in a > lesser degree than > > other countries." > > >>>> > > >>>> But. if we read Carlo Ginzburg's Il formaggio e i fermi. Il > cosmo > > >>>> di un mugnaio del '500 (1976), a seminal work in micro-history, > > >>>> Italy suffered under the inquisition as well. > > >>>> Galileo's case is of course very well known. > > >>>> > > >>>> It's all too easy to project from our present time to that past. > > >>>> > > >>>> Regards from Barcelona, dear lute friends. :-) > > >>>> > > >>>> Manolo > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>> El 04/05/2015, a las 19:27, Sean Smith <[14]lutesm...@mac.com> > escribiA^3: > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> That's what I'm thinking, too. The very first piece in Dalza's > > >>>>> book is the Caldibi Castigliano and it certainly points to a > > >>>>> refined and complex idiom unlike anything else in his Ferrerese > or > > >>>>> Venetiana dance cycles. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Sean > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> On May 4, 2015, at 9:52 AM, Gary Boye wrote: > > >>>>> > > >>>>> A word of caution here: > > >>>>> > > >>>>> We are making judgements based primarily on the printed > evidence > > >>>>> (i.e., the 7 main vihuela tablatures); there was a great deal > of > > >>>>> music (most of it!) that took place in Spain outside of these > > >>>>> formal, published works. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Publishing was a big deal in the 16th century. Getting an > > >>>>> imprimatur from a conservative and literally Inquisitorial > > >>>>> government was unlikely with a large collection of dance music; > > >>>>> much easier to play it conservative and stick to sacred > > >>>>> intabulations. The vihuela manuscripts hint at a wider > repertoire, > > >>>>> as does the existence of guitar music from a later period. Who > > >>>>> knows what was happening on the streets, but the Inquisition > > >>>>> wouldn't have had much to do if everyone in Spain was a > straight-laced as > > the vihuela tablatures make it seem . > > >>>>> . . > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Gary > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Dr. Gary R. Boye > > >>>>> Professor and Music Librarian > > >>>>> Appalachian State University > > >>>>> > > >>>>>> On 5/4/2015 12:37 PM, Dan Winheld wrote: > > >>>>>> In other words, because the only two ethnic/cultural groups > that > > >>>>>> had any rhythm were invited to leave the premises at once. It > was > > >>>>>> said that when all the Jewish & Moorish doctors, scholars, > > >>>>>> scientists, and artists & academics showed up on his doorstep, > > >>>>>> the Sultan of Turkey asked "Has the King of Spain lost his > mind?" > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Lacking some rhythm myself, I do enjoy the all the great > vihuela > > >>>>>> music a lot- but even I have to sometimes "move" over to Italy > & > > >>>>>> Germany for a little jumping around. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Dan > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>>> On 5/4/2015 3:36 AM, Ron Andrico wrote: > > >>>>>>> Well, the first answer that springs to mind is because Spain > had > > >>>>>>> recently kicked out all the dance musicians, who had moved to > Italy. > > >>>>>>> They were left with a bunch of upwardly mobile courtiers > > >>>>>>> (Milan), and serious-minded priests with so much time on > their > > >>>>>>> hands that they intabulated every piece of vocal polyphony > they > > >>>>>>> could put their hands on. > > >>>>>>> Actually, there is quite a bit of dance music in Fuenllana's > > >>>>>>> print, some but much less in the other six published books. > > >>>>>>> Also, there was quite a bit of dance music evident in Naples, > > >>>>>>> which was Spanish at the time. > > >>>>>>> RA > > >>>>>>>> Date: Mon, 4 May 2015 09:29:52 +0200 > > >>>>>>>> To: [15]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > > >>>>>>>> From: [16]r.ba...@gmx.de > > >>>>>>>> Subject: [LUTE] Spain vs. Italy > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> Hi all, > > >>>>>>>> In the early 1500s, why are dances so common in Italian lute > > >>>>>>>> music > > >>>>>>> and > > >>>>>>>> so rare in the vihuela rep. ? > > >>>>>>>> Thanks > > >>>>>>>> -- > > >>>>>>>> Sent from my Android phone with GMX Mail. Please excuse my > brevity. > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> To get on or off this list see list information at > > >>>>>>>> [17]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> -- > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> -- > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > References > > 1. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu > 2. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu > 3. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu > 4. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu > 5. mailto:edward.y...@gmail.com > 6. mailto:l...@pantagruel.de > 7. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk > 8. mailto:man...@manololaguillo.com > 9. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > 10. mailto:l...@pantagruel.de > 11. https://www.press.jhu.edu/timeline/sel/Bartels_2006.pdf > 12. mailto:man...@manololaguillo.com > 13. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > 14. mailto:lutesm...@mac.com > 15. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > 16. mailto:r.ba...@gmx.de > 17. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
