Dear Robert,
I'm not really convinced of the accuracy of the assertion that
........... 'most theorbo players today manage fine using thumb
inside'............
Firstly, that most competent habitual theorbo players actually employ
this historically rare (for the theorbo) practice. And, secondly, that
those who do are relatively well heard in actual concert.
Of course, if one is mostly playing earlier sixteenth century
repertoire on the lute it may be a challenge to adopt a wholly new, if
historically more usual, posture for an occasional foray into the later
repertoire on the theorbo. Indeed, one can understand the reluctance,
especially of professional lutentists, to modify their usual practice
for an occasional outing on the theorbo (or indeed any later lute such
as the Dm instrument).
However, the overriding factor must surely be the level of volume which
can be produced in live performance without electronic amplification.
Naturally, if such amplification is employed (as sadly is evident on
many engineered recordings), even plucking softly over the rose with
thumb under can be engineered to result in a balance close to a modern
Bechstein grand (as has been suggested elsewhere) - but is not what the
original composers would have expected nor is it what their auditors
would have actually heard.
MH
.
On Wednesday, 6 March 2019, 23:08:35 GMT, Robin Irvine
<rf...@cam.ac.uk> wrote:
Yes, I agree with all that. It is may not actually be much louder, but
I do think that because of all the harmonic effects Sean describes it
'cuts through' continuous sounds (e.g. singer(s) or viols) better. And
if you move your hand nearer the bridge it is possible to give the
string a much fiercer pluck, so you can actually produce more sound.
I agree with Martin that once the number of strings rises above 8 it is
easier to play with thumb out, but as has been said by others in this
stream, most theorbo players today manage fine using thumb inside, so
I'm not convinced that this was the major factor driving this really
quite striking change in how the lute was plucked. I think it was the
different sound that suited better the changing role of the instrument.
My two ha'penny'orth
Robin
On 06/03/2019, 21:00, "Sean Smith" <[1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu on
behalf of [2]lutesm...@gmail.com> wrote:
To say that plucking the string closer to the bridge is "louder"
opens
a few cans of worms here. To pluck the string at any place along
its
length from 12th fret to near the bridge is to put the same
amount of
energy into the string but introduces various overtones depending
on
where it happens. Introducing higher overtones by plucking near
the
bridge fools the ear into thinking it's louder - in some
frequencies,
yes, it is - but at the expense of less energy going into the
fundamental note.
Do the experiment: pluck with the same force a single bass string
from
anywhere from over the twelfth fret to the rose and to within
milimeters of the bridge and see how the volume changes in
relation to
the fundamental to the overtones. As you get right up next to the
bridge it's almost impossible to engage the fundamental note of
any
string while under the 12th it is less complex and uninteresting.
It's
simply a choice of how much of which.
If you were to sight a high-speed camera up a theorbo bass string
from
the bridge and pluck close to the bridge you would see that
overtone
shoot up the string and back and barely engage the fundamental
vibration. That overtone is the quickest to dissipate into the
instrument and other entropies. When I was a kid hanging around
sailboats I made a game of this hitting rigging and mooring lines
with
a mallet much to my father's dismay.
To be fair, string resistance also plays into where we choose to
pluck.
There doesn't seem to be enough resistance for at the 12th while
too
near the bridge is all resistance, like strings of iron.
When bass strings were fairly dull (i.e., when large diameter
monofilament and earliest roped strings dissipated energy quickly
and
yielded few overtones) the addition of an octave string
introduced
overtones making it more palatable. As lengths and string tech
grew/improved the octave string could be dismissed as we see in
the
loss of the 4th octave and later the others. To introduce a
brighter
sound (more overtones) one played nearer the bridge.
(Fortunately, the
less complex course, unisons/single string, also afforded more
hand
positions) But there is a cost here. That bright sound that cuts
through the orchestra on the attack will destroy itself as the
overtones cause the note to decay quicker or simply rob the
fundamental
tone of energy in the first place.
Another factor in the decay of the note is the size and
immobility of
the instrument. A small lute will quickly absorb and dissipate
the
energy of that string. Clever players found that if you don't let
the
instrument sympathetically vibrate, the string will ring louder
and
certainly longer. And so the got more volume and/or longer ring
from
resting it against the table. Durer's sketch of an angel setting
his
lute on a pedestal is using the same trick as the painting of the
French theorbo player in a group pushing his lute against the
table.
Needless to say, the theorbo and lutes had a hard time competing
in
sound with strings actually incorporated into the table: the
harpsichord and even heavier (less overtone ridden) pianoforte.
Sometimes I think we should return the monochord to lute theory.
my 4 cents; carry on, Sean
On Wed, Mar 6, 2019 at 9:20 AM Robin Irvine
<[1][3]rf...@cam.ac.uk> wrote:
There is another important aspect of this shift in hand
position,
and that is the sound. Try playing your lute with thumb under,
near
the rose, and then thumb out near the bridge. With the latter
it
makes a much more penetrating sound which carries better
against a
singer or other instruments, and would also carry better in a
larger
hall/room. This surely is an important part of the change in
hand
position. And it is almost impossible to play thumb/finger runs
thumb out with octave stringing , so the introduction of unison
strings on the lower 6 courses might have been a factor - it
allows
this shift in hand position, which was perhaps driven in part
by the
changing uses of the lute, to take place. After all, wasn't the
original reason for creating the theorbo not least to give the
instrument more 'welly'? So, as Martin says, playing a theorbo
with
thumb inside kind of defeats the object!
Robin Irvine
à ¯à »à ¿On 06/03/2019, 16:51, "Martin Shepherd"
<[2][4]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of
[3][5]mar...@luteshop.co.uk>
wrote:
Robinson recommends thumb-under: "...with your thumb behind
your
fingers". (sig.Bii).
Waissel (1592) also recommends thumb-under - he says it's
faster.
But for what it's worth, I think thumb out was very common
by
1600, and
easily the most common technique by 1610. For me, the
transition seems
to be driven by the number of courses - it seems OK to play
a 7c
lute
with either technique, but once you get to 8 or more
courses it
really
seems to demand thumb out.
Vallet and ML both give two dots for middle finger, one dot
for
index,
and in both it is clear that most running passages are
played
alternating the two. In faster passages, where only single
dots are
present, I think we can infer thumb-index alternation but
with
the thumb
outside, not inside.
Martin
On 06/03/2019 17:02, Alain Veylit wrote:
> Thomas Robinson's Schoole of musicke gives very detailed
fingering
> information and might be interesting to check also on
this
topic.
>
> I personally remain convinced that there was a
transitional
period
> (1600-1610ish) when both techniques were in use --
possibly
in the
> same piece. Single dots on the 5th and 6th course in
Vallet or
Besard
> or ML could provide some element of proof, perhaps ...
>
> Rainer has worked a lot on Vallet recently, may be he can
share his
> findings on this topic??
>
>
> On 3/6/19 5:22 AM, Andreas Schlegel wrote:
>> Dear Ron,
>>
>>> Am 06.03.2019 um 13:59 schrieb Ron Andrico
<[4][6]praelu...@hotmail.com>:
>>>
>>> Perhaps the mis-remembered quotation is a conflation
of
Besard and
>>> Vallet, who recommended thumb-index for fast
passages.
Nevertheless,
>>> music from around 1600 forward in time should be
played
with the
>>> thumb
>>> out if we are to follow the written advice and the
iconography. I
>>> still see far too may baroque lute and theorbo
players
using
>>> thumb-under, which is patently absurd given both the
historical
>>> precedent and the physical layout of extended bass
instruments.
>>> Isn't
>>> it about time lute players moved forward from the
guitarist versus
>>> lutenist nonsense from the 1970s and played
according to
actual
>>> historical examples?
>> ThatÃâà ¢à ¢à ¬à ¢à ¢s exactly the goal of our
summer
course in
Chiavenna (with
>> Paul Beier, Vinicius Perez and me):
>> - Understanding historical lute techniques
>> - Reading original sources and understanding the kinds
of
information
>> found in them
>> - Establishing a repertoire illustrative of historical
techniques
>> - Studying original lutes and lute construction (with
Klaus
Jacobsen)
>> - Developing an awareness of our goals as musicians
>>
>> See here:
>> [5][7]http://www.musico.it/chiavennabaroque/
>>
>> ItÃâà ¢à ¢à ¬à ¢à ¢s really time to change
something.
>>
>> Andreas
>>
>>>
__________________________________________________________________
>>>
>>> From: [6][8]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
<[7][9]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu> on
>>> behalf
>>> of Martin Shepherd <[8][10]mar...@luteshop.co.uk>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 6, 2019 8:23 AM
>>> To: Lute List
>>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: right hand technique -- bending
the
pinky
>>>
>>> Dear All,
>>> Just from memory - Besard insists on thumb-out
technique
as being
>>> the
>>> best, but allows that people with short thumbs may
find
thumb-inside
>>> easier. I find it inconceivable that he would
change
hand position
>>> during a piece, and see no reason why you should not
use
thumb-index
>>> alternation in fast runs with thumb out - flamenco
guitarists do
>>> it all
>>> the time.
>>> The fingering dots in the ML lute book (c.1640) give
an
interesting
>>> indication of this. In Dowland's fantasia (Poulton
1,
ML
>>> ff.14v-15r)
>>> all runs are marked to be played middle-index,
except
where a
>>> running
>>> passage has infrequent bass notes (f.15, second
system)
which
>>> have no
>>> double dots (meaning middle), so presumably to be be
played
>>> thumb-index. Once the bass notes become more
frequent
(and the
>>> speed
>>> of the treble movement stays the same, 3rd and 4th
systems) the
>>> middle-index alternation returns. Then a fast
cadential formula
>>> (end
>>> of
>>> system 5) lacks any double dots and is therefore
thumb-index.
>>> I'm sure there are many other examples like this.
Nigel North's
>>> recent
>>> talk at the Lute Society gave many interesting
examples
of RH
>>> fingerings.
>>> Martin
>>> On 06/03/2019 08:06, [9][11]jo.lued...@t-online.de
wrote:
>>>> Sorry: 'original', naturally!
>>>>
>>>> Gesendet von meinem BlackBerry 10-Smartphone.
>>>> Originalnachricht
>>>> Von: [10][12]jo.lued...@t-online.de
>>>> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 6. MÃâ Ãâ¬rz 2019 07:49
>>>> An: Lute net
>>>> Antwort an: [11][13]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
>>>> Betreff: [LUTE] Re: right hand technique -- bending
the
pinky
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Dear Alan, dear Jurgen,
>>>>
>>>> There is something to that effect in all 'oroginal'
versions of
>>> Besard's instructions, that is: 1603 and 1617. I do
not
remember
>>> if ye
>>> text englished contains the passage...
>>>> Best
>>>>
>>>> Joachim
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Originalnachricht
>>>> Von: Alain Veylit
>>>> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 6. MÃâ Ãâ¬rz 2019 04:32
>>>> Antwort an: [12][14]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
>>>> Cc: Lute net
>>>> Betreff: [LUTE] Re: right hand technique -- bending
the
pinky
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Jurgen,
>>>>
>>>> It's been a while and I was quoting from memory... but
I am
sure I
>>> saw
>>>> it somewhere - perhaps the instructions translated in
English in the
>>>> Varietie of Lute Lessons?
>>>>
>>>> Or maybe the use of dots in Thesaurus Harmonicus ...
>>>>
>>>> Alain
>>>>
>>>> On 3/4/19 11:11 PM, Jurgen Frenz wrote:
>>>>> It would be totally excellent if you'd find out where
Besard made
>>> that suggestion.
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> jurgen
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ----------------------------------
>>>>> "There is a voice that doesn't use words. Listen."
>>>>>
>>>>> JalÃâ l ad-DÃâ à «n Muhammad Rumi
>>>>>
>>>>> Ãâà ¢à ¢à ¬ Ãâà ¢à ¢à ¬ Ãâà ¢à ¢Ã
¬ Ãâà ¢à ¢à ¬ ÃâÃ
¢à ¢à ¬ Ãâà ¢à ¢à ¬ Ãâà ¢à ¢à ¬ Original Message
Ãâà ¢à ¢à ¬
Ãâà ¢à ¢à ¬ Ãâà ¢à ¢à ¬ Ãâà ¢à ¢à ¬ ÃâÃ
¢à ¢à ¬ Ãâà ¢à ¢à ¬ ÃâÃ
¢à ¢à ¬ .
>>>>> On Tuesday, March 5, 2019 10:40 AM, Alain Veylit
>>> <[13][15]al...@musickshandmade.com> wrote:
>>>>>> That's odd because I remember O'Dette's advice for
the
left-hand
>>> pinky:
>>>>>> plant it vertically on the string instead of laying
it
flat - which
>>>>>> requires more effort. That should mean his left-hand
little finger
>>> can
>>>>>> bend... Not a conclusive proof for the right hand
little
finger but
>>> ...
>>>>>> For Renaissance lute, if I am not mistaken, the
right-hand little
>>> finger
>>>>>> is supposed to be parallel to the sound board, just
lightly
>>> brushing on
>>>>>> it, and it should remain extended.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Anybody with a good explanation as to how additional
basses would
>>> alter
>>>>>> the right hand position? If I recall, Besard still
argued
for a
>>> mixed
>>>>>> technique, thumb-under for fast runs and thumb over
for
whatever
>>> else
>>>>>> (chords). I think it is logical that increasing
dedication of the
>>> thumb
>>>>>> to the bass strings does account for the shift in
right-hand
>>> position,
>>>>>> and when you think about it, it is not a small
revolution
in music
>>>>>> history...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 3/4/19 7:12 PM, Richard Brook wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Heard via the late great Pat OBrien Paul O'Dette
couldn't bend
>>> that finger down by itself. Though I think Pat said
in
my case the
>>> fault was in my head, not in the stars.
>>>>>>> D ick Brook
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Mar 4, 2019, at 6:58 PM, Alain Veylit
>>> [14][16]al...@musickshandmade.com wrote:
>>>>>>>> Good one Rainer - Anybody remembers the title of
that
American
>>> series from the 60s-70s where aliens live among us
in
disguise,
>>> and the
>>> only sure way to identify them is that they cannot
bend
their little
>>> finger?
>>>>>>>> Worth mentioning also about right-hand technique,
Jimmy
Hendrix
>>> playing with his teeth - frustrated leftie, you
think?
>>>>>>>> On 3/4/19 12:19 PM, Rainer wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 04.03.2019 17:11, Alain Veylit wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> And then, there is Django Reinhardt... one big
exception to the
>>> rules of guitar playing. Experimenting with various
techniques has
>>> probably always been a popular habit among
musicians,
whether by
>>> choice
>>> or force.
>>>>>>>>> And Aguado used the 4th finger of the right hand.
Perhaps he was
>>> an alien :)
>>>>>>>>> Rainer
>>>>>>>>> To get on or off this list see list information
at
>>>>>>>>>
[1][15][17]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> ---
>>> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast
antivirus software.
>>> [2][16][18]https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>>>
>>> References
>>>
>>> 1.
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>>> 2. [18][20]https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>>>
>> Andreas Schlegel
>> Eckstr. 6
>> CH-5737 Menziken
>> Festnetz +41 (0)62 771 47 07
>> Mobile +41 (0)78 646 87 63
>> [19][21]lute.cor...@sunrise.ch
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>
>
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5. [26]http://www.musico.it/chiavennabaroque/
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15. [36]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
16. [37]https://www.avast.com/antivirus
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18. [39]https://www.avast.com/antivirus
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References
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3. mailto:rf...@cam.ac.uk
4. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
5. mailto:mar...@luteshop.co.uk
6. mailto:praelu...@hotmail.com
7. http://www.musico.it/chiavennabaroque/
8. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
9. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
10. mailto:mar...@luteshop.co.uk
11. mailto:jo.lued...@t-online.de
12. mailto:jo.lued...@t-online.de
13. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
14. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
15. mailto:al...@musickshandmade.com
16. mailto:al...@musickshandmade.com
17. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
18. https://www.avast.com/antivirus
19. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
20. https://www.avast.com/antivirus
21. mailto:lute.cor...@sunrise.ch
22. mailto:rf...@cam.ac.uk
23. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
24. mailto:mar...@luteshop.co.uk
25. mailto:praelu...@hotmail.com
26. http://www.musico.it/chiavennabaroque/
27. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
28. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
29. mailto:mar...@luteshop.co.uk
30. mailto:jo.lued...@t-online.de
31. mailto:jo.lued...@t-online.de
32. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
33. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
34. mailto:al...@musickshandmade.com
35. mailto:al...@musickshandmade.com
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