Ah, delightful to hear from someone who understand the physics of
vibrating strings! The only thing I could add is that playing loudly
ie: plucking with great force near the rosette could result in the
strings slapping the fingerboard/frets unless the action was quite
high, which could make the instrument difficult/uncomfortable to play.
A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E.
On Mar 6, 2019, at 2:00 PM, Sean Smith <[1]lutesm...@gmail.com> wrote:
To say that plucking the string closer to the bridge is "louder"
opens
a few cans of worms here. To pluck the string at any place along its
length from 12th fret to near the bridge is to put the same amount of
energy into the string but introduces various overtones depending on
where it happens. Introducing higher overtones by plucking near the
bridge fools the ear into thinking it's louder - in some frequencies,
yes, it is - but at the expense of less energy going into the
fundamental note.
Do the experiment: pluck with the same force a single bass string
from
anywhere from over the twelfth fret to the rose and to within
milimeters of the bridge and see how the volume changes in relation
to
the fundamental to the overtones. As you get right up next to the
bridge it's almost impossible to engage the fundamental note of any
string while under the 12th it is less complex and uninteresting.
It's
simply a choice of how much of which.
If you were to sight a high-speed camera up a theorbo bass string
from
the bridge and pluck close to the bridge you would see that overtone
shoot up the string and back and barely engage the fundamental
vibration. That overtone is the quickest to dissipate into the
instrument and other entropies. When I was a kid hanging around
sailboats I made a game of this hitting rigging and mooring lines
with
a mallet much to my father's dismay.
To be fair, string resistance also plays into where we choose to
pluck.
There doesn't seem to be enough resistance for at the 12th while too
near the bridge is all resistance, like strings of iron.
When bass strings were fairly dull (i.e., when large diameter
monofilament and earliest roped strings dissipated energy quickly and
yielded few overtones) the addition of an octave string introduced
overtones making it more palatable. As lengths and string tech
grew/improved the octave string could be dismissed as we see in the
loss of the 4th octave and later the others. To introduce a brighter
sound (more overtones) one played nearer the bridge. (Fortunately,
the
less complex course, unisons/single string, also afforded more hand
positions) But there is a cost here. That bright sound that cuts
through the orchestra on the attack will destroy itself as the
overtones cause the note to decay quicker or simply rob the
fundamental
tone of energy in the first place.
Another factor in the decay of the note is the size and immobility of
the instrument. A small lute will quickly absorb and dissipate the
energy of that string. Clever players found that if you don't let the
instrument sympathetically vibrate, the string will ring louder and
certainly longer. And so the got more volume and/or longer ring from
resting it against the table. Durer's sketch of an angel setting his
lute on a pedestal is using the same trick as the painting of the
French theorbo player in a group pushing his lute against the table.
Needless to say, the theorbo and lutes had a hard time competing in
sound with strings actually incorporated into the table: the
harpsichord and even heavier (less overtone ridden) pianoforte.
Sometimes I think we should return the monochord to lute theory.
my 4 cents; carry on, Sean
On Wed, Mar 6, 2019 at 9:20 AM Robin Irvine <[1][2]rf...@cam.ac.uk>
wrote:
There is another important aspect of this shift in hand position,
and that is the sound. Try playing your lute with thumb under, near
the rose, and then thumb out near the bridge. With the latter it
makes a much more penetrating sound which carries better against a
singer or other instruments, and would also carry better in a
larger
hall/room. This surely is an important part of the change in hand
position. And it is almost impossible to play thumb/finger runs
thumb out with octave stringing , so the introduction of unison
strings on the lower 6 courses might have been a factor - it allows
this shift in hand position, which was perhaps driven in part by
the
changing uses of the lute, to take place. After all, wasn't the
original reason for creating the theorbo not least to give the
instrument more 'welly'? So, as Martin says, playing a theorbo with
thumb inside kind of defeats the object!
Robin Irvine
On 06/03/2019, 16:51, "Martin Shepherd"
<[2][3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of
[3][4]mar...@luteshop.co.uk>
wrote:
Robinson recommends thumb-under: "...with your thumb behind
your
fingers". (sig.Bii).
Waissel (1592) also recommends thumb-under - he says it's
faster.
But for what it's worth, I think thumb out was very common by
1600, and
easily the most common technique by 1610. For me, the
transition seems
to be driven by the number of courses - it seems OK to play a
7c
lute
with either technique, but once you get to 8 or more courses it
really
seems to demand thumb out.
Vallet and ML both give two dots for middle finger, one dot for
index,
and in both it is clear that most running passages are played
alternating the two. In faster passages, where only single
dots are
present, I think we can infer thumb-index alternation but with
the thumb
outside, not inside.
Martin
On 06/03/2019 17:02, Alain Veylit wrote:
Thomas Robinson's Schoole of musicke gives very detailed
fingering
information and might be interesting to check also on this
topic.
I personally remain convinced that there was a transitional
period
(1600-1610ish) when both techniques were in use -- possibly
in the
same piece. Single dots on the 5th and 6th course in Vallet or
Besard
or ML could provide some element of proof, perhaps ...
Rainer has worked a lot on Vallet recently, may be he can
share his
findings on this topic??
On 3/6/19 5:22 AM, Andreas Schlegel wrote:
Dear Ron,
Am 06.03.2019 um 13:59 schrieb Ron Andrico
<[4][5]praelu...@hotmail.com>:
Perhaps the mis-remembered quotation is a conflation of
Besard and
Vallet, who recommended thumb-index for fast passages.
Nevertheless,
music from around 1600 forward in time should be played
with the
thumb
out if we are to follow the written advice and the
iconography. I
still see far too may baroque lute and theorbo players
using
thumb-under, which is patently absurd given both the
historical
precedent and the physical layout of extended bass
instruments.
Isn't
it about time lute players moved forward from the
guitarist versus
lutenist nonsense from the 1970s and played according to
actual
historical examples?
Thatââ¬â¢s exactly the goal of our summer course in
Chiavenna (with
Paul Beier, Vinicius Perez and me):
- Understanding historical lute techniques
- Reading original sources and understanding the kinds of
information
found in them
- Establishing a repertoire illustrative of historical
techniques
- Studying original lutes and lute construction (with Klaus
Jacobsen)
- Developing an awareness of our goals as musicians
See here:
[5][6]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.musico
.it_chiavennabaroque_&d=DwIFaQ&c=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jIn
uKy6zbqQ&r=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E&m=hMclq94wCOn
67wDv5JcU8Vv6vBz3hxmwv4n1ZJ3VlMw&s=6l7lSYmUr6B61J40Ocg813aVlUUqxolaT
BlNdxf2SoI&e=
Itââ¬â¢s really time to change something.
Andreas
__________________________________________________________________
From: [6][7]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
<[7][8]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu> on
behalf
of Martin Shepherd <[8][9]mar...@luteshop.co.uk>
Sent: Wednesday, March 6, 2019 8:23 AM
To: Lute List
Subject: [LUTE] Re: right hand technique -- bending the
pinky
Dear All,
Just from memory - Besard insists on thumb-out technique
as being
the
best, but allows that people with short thumbs may find
thumb-inside
easier. I find it inconceivable that he would change
hand position
during a piece, and see no reason why you should not use
thumb-index
alternation in fast runs with thumb out - flamenco
guitarists do
it all
the time.
The fingering dots in the ML lute book (c.1640) give an
interesting
indication of this. In Dowland's fantasia (Poulton 1,
ML
ff.14v-15r)
all runs are marked to be played middle-index, except
where a
running
passage has infrequent bass notes (f.15, second system)
which
have no
double dots (meaning middle), so presumably to be be
played
thumb-index. Once the bass notes become more frequent
(and the
speed
of the treble movement stays the same, 3rd and 4th
systems) the
middle-index alternation returns. Then a fast
cadential formula
(end
of
system 5) lacks any double dots and is therefore
thumb-index.
I'm sure there are many other examples like this.
Nigel North's
recent
talk at the Lute Society gave many interesting examples
of RH
fingerings.
Martin
On 06/03/2019 08:06, [9][10]jo.lued...@t-online.de wrote:
Sorry: 'original', naturally!
Gesendet von meinem BlackBerry 10-Smartphone.
Originalnachricht
Von: [10][11]jo.lued...@t-online.de
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 6. Mà ¤rz 2019 07:49
An: Lute net
Antwort an: [11][12]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
Betreff: [LUTE] Re: right hand technique -- bending the
pinky
Dear Alan, dear Jurgen,
There is something to that effect in all 'oroginal'
versions of
Besard's instructions, that is: 1603 and 1617. I do not
remember
if ye
text englished contains the passage...
Best
Joachim
Originalnachricht
Von: Alain Veylit
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 6. Mà ¤rz 2019 04:32
Antwort an: [12][13]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
Cc: Lute net
Betreff: [LUTE] Re: right hand technique -- bending the
pinky
Jurgen,
It's been a while and I was quoting from memory... but I am
sure I
saw
it somewhere - perhaps the instructions translated in
English in the
Varietie of Lute Lessons?
Or maybe the use of dots in Thesaurus Harmonicus ...
Alain
On 3/4/19 11:11 PM, Jurgen Frenz wrote:
It would be totally excellent if you'd find out where
Besard made
that suggestion.
Thanks,
jurgen
----------------------------------
"There is a voice that doesn't use words. Listen."
Jalà l ad-Dà «n Muhammad Rumi
â⬠â⬠â⬠â⬠â⬠â⬠â⬠Original
Message ââ¬
â⬠â⬠â⬠â⬠â⬠â⬠.
On Tuesday, March 5, 2019 10:40 AM, Alain Veylit
<[13][14]al...@musickshandmade.com> wrote:
That's odd because I remember O'Dette's advice for the
left-hand
pinky:
plant it vertically on the string instead of laying it
flat - which
requires more effort. That should mean his left-hand
little finger
can
bend... Not a conclusive proof for the right hand little
finger but
...
For Renaissance lute, if I am not mistaken, the
right-hand little
finger
is supposed to be parallel to the sound board, just
lightly
brushing on
it, and it should remain extended.
Anybody with a good explanation as to how additional
basses would
alter
the right hand position? If I recall, Besard still argued
for a
mixed
technique, thumb-under for fast runs and thumb over for
whatever
else
(chords). I think it is logical that increasing
dedication of the
thumb
to the bass strings does account for the shift in
right-hand
position,
and when you think about it, it is not a small revolution
in music
history...
On 3/4/19 7:12 PM, Richard Brook wrote:
Heard via the late great Pat OBrien Paul O'Dette
couldn't bend
that finger down by itself. Though I think Pat said in
my case the
fault was in my head, not in the stars.
D ick Brook
On Mar 4, 2019, at 6:58 PM, Alain Veylit
[14][15]al...@musickshandmade.com wrote:
Good one Rainer - Anybody remembers the title of that
American
series from the 60s-70s where aliens live among us in
disguise,
and the
only sure way to identify them is that they cannot bend
their little
finger?
Worth mentioning also about right-hand technique, Jimmy
Hendrix
playing with his teeth - frustrated leftie, you think?
On 3/4/19 12:19 PM, Rainer wrote:
On 04.03.2019 17:11, Alain Veylit wrote:
And then, there is Django Reinhardt... one big
exception to the
rules of guitar playing. Experimenting with various
techniques has
probably always been a popular habit among musicians,
whether by
choice
or force.
And Aguado used the 4th finger of the right hand.
Perhaps he was
an alien :)
Rainer
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References
1.
[17][18]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.cs.
dartmouth.edu_-7Ewbc_lute-2Dadmin_index.html&d=DwIFaQ&c=l45AxH-kUV29SRQ
usp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ&r=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt
90E&m=hMclq94wCOn67wDv5JcU8Vv6vBz3hxmwv4n1ZJ3VlMw&s=HHplaYWDtEQx5LEYLL4
f9TLEgOKkrtmbFh2A5YwlwSQ&e=
2.
[18][19]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ava
st.com_antivirus&d=DwIFaQ&c=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6z
bqQ&r=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E&m=hMclq94wCOn67wDv
5JcU8Vv6vBz3hxmwv4n1ZJ3VlMw&s=sSeM7-LNcpECttMt0dVyqEx59HDy9urbfNsqCd
5tCAQ&e=
Andreas Schlegel
Eckstr. 6
CH-5737 Menziken
Festnetz +41 (0)62 771 47 07
Mobile +41 (0)78 646 87 63
[19][20]lute.cor...@sunrise.ch
--
--
References
1. [21]mailto:rf...@cam.ac.uk
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&r=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E&m=hMclq94wCOn67wDv5JcU8V
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h.edu_-7Ewbc_lute-2Dadmin_index.html&d=DwIFaQ&c=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0
n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ&r=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E&m=hM
clq94wCOn67wDv5JcU8Vv6vBz3hxmwv4n1ZJ3VlMw&s=HHplaYWDtEQx5LEYLL4f9TLEgOK
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antivirus&d=DwIFaQ&c=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ&r=VLPJ
8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E&m=hMclq94wCOn67wDv5JcU8Vv6vBz3h
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h.edu_-7Ewbc_lute-2Dadmin_index.html&d=DwIFaQ&c=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0
n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ&r=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E&m=hM
clq94wCOn67wDv5JcU8Vv6vBz3hxmwv4n1ZJ3VlMw&s=HHplaYWDtEQx5LEYLL4f9TLEgOK
krtmbFh2A5YwlwSQ&e=
18.
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antivirus&d=DwIFaQ&c=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ&r=VLPJ
8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E&m=hMclq94wCOn67wDv5JcU8Vv6vBz3h
xmwv4n1ZJ3VlMw&s=sSeM7-LNcpECttMt0dVyqEx59HDy9urbfNsqCd5tCAQ&e=
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5. mailto:praelu...@hotmail.com
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https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.cs.dartmouth.edu_-7Ewbc_lute-2Dadmin_index.html&d=DwIFaQ&c=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ&r=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E&m=hMclq94wCOn67wDv5JcU8Vv6vBz3hxmwv4n1ZJ3VlMw&s=HHplaYWDtEQx5LEYLL4f9TLEgOKkrtmbFh2A5YwlwSQ&e=
36.
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.avast.com_antivirus&d=DwIFaQ&c=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ&r=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E&m=hMclq94wCOn67wDv5JcU8Vv6vBz3hxmwv4n1ZJ3VlMw&s=sSeM7-LNcpECttMt0dVyqEx59HDy9urbfNsqCd5tCAQ&e=
37.
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.cs.dartmouth.edu_-7Ewbc_lute-2Dadmin_index.html&d=DwIFaQ&c=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ&r=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E&m=hMclq94wCOn67wDv5JcU8Vv6vBz3hxmwv4n1ZJ3VlMw&s=HHplaYWDtEQx5LEYLL4f9TLEgOKkrtmbFh2A5YwlwSQ&e=
38.
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.avast.com_antivirus&d=DwIFaQ&c=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ&r=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E&m=hMclq94wCOn67wDv5JcU8Vv6vBz3hxmwv4n1ZJ3VlMw&s=sSeM7-LNcpECttMt0dVyqEx59HDy9urbfNsqCd5tCAQ&e=
39. mailto:lute.cor...@sunrise.ch
