Almost no nails? L
Van: Roland Hayes [[1]mailto:rha...@legalaidbuffalo.org] Verzonden: woensdag 6 maart 2019 21:02 Aan: lex.eisenhardt <[2]lex.eisenha...@gmail.com> Onderwerp: Re: [LUTE] Re: right hand technique -- bending the pinky I would add "almost" Get [3]Outlook for Android _____________________________________________________________________ From: [4]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu <[5]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu> on behalf of lex.eisenhardt <[6]lex.eisenha...@gmail.com> Sent: Wednesday, March 6, 2019 2:37:05 PM To: Ron Andrico; Lute List Subject: [LUTE] Re: right hand technique -- bending the pinky No nails? On the theorbo? Lex Verzonden vanaf mijn Samsung Galaxy-smartphone. -------- Oorspronkelijk bericht -------- Van: Ron Andrico <[7]praelu...@hotmail.com> Datum: 06-03-19 20:30 (GMT+01:00) Aan: Lute List <[8]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Onderwerp: [LUTE] Re: right hand technique -- bending the pinky Thank you Martyn. It's about time we all sorted out this popular misconception. I have encountered several classical guitarists who still think their right hand position must be completely altered to play lute, and it's a surprise to them when I say that their hand position is probably optimal for baroque lute and theorbo - perhaps minus the nails. RA __________________________________________________________________ From: [9]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu <[10]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu> on behalf of Martyn Hodgson <[11]hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Wednesday, March 6, 2019 3:55 PM To: Lute List; Ron Andrico Subject: [LUTE] Re: right hand technique -- bending the pinky Indeed. I well recall Eph Segerman remarking several years ago that the obsession with thumb-under was, and for many remains, an attempt by some modern lutenists to distance themselves from the hated classical guitar which, ironically, many had started out on! As you say Ron, the evidence is very clear MH On Wednesday, 6 March 2019, 13:08:10 GMT, Ron Andrico <[12]praelu...@hotmail.com> wrote: Perhaps the mis-remembered quotation is a conflation of Besard and Vallet, who recommended thumb-index for fast passages. Nevertheless, music from around 1600 forward in time should be played with the thumb out if we are to follow the written advice and the iconography. I still see far too may baroque lute and theorbo players using thumb-under, which is patently absurd given both the historical precedent and the physical layout of extended bass instruments. Isn't it about time lute players moved forward from the guitarist versus lutenist nonsense from the 1970s and played according to actual historical examples? __________________________________________________________________ From: [1][13]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu <[2][14]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu> on behalf of Martin Shepherd <[3][15]mar...@luteshop.co.uk> Sent: Wednesday, March 6, 2019 8:23 AM To: Lute List Subject: [LUTE] Re: right hand technique -- bending the pinky Dear All, Just from memory - Besard insists on thumb-out technique as being the best, but allows that people with short thumbs may find thumb-inside easier. I find it inconceivable that he would change hand position during a piece, and see no reason why you should not use thumb-index alternation in fast runs with thumb out - flamenco guitarists do it all the time. The fingering dots in the ML lute book (c.1640) give an interesting indication of this. In Dowland's fantasia (Poulton 1, ML ff.14v-15r) all runs are marked to be played middle-index, except where a running passage has infrequent bass notes (f.15, second system) which have no double dots (meaning middle), so presumably to be be played thumb-index. Once the bass notes become more frequent (and the speed of the treble movement stays the same, 3rd and 4th systems) the middle-index alternation returns. Then a fast cadential formula (end of system 5) lacks any double dots and is therefore thumb-index. I'm sure there are many other examples like this. Nigel North's recent talk at the Lute Society gave many interesting examples of RH fingerings. Martin On 06/03/2019 08:06, [4][16]jo.lued...@t-online.de wrote: > Sorry: 'original', naturally! > > Gesendet von meinem BlackBerry 10-Smartphone. > Originalnachricht > Von: [5][17]jo.lued...@t-online.de > Gesendet: Mittwoch, 6. MÃÆà �rz 2019 07:49 > An: Lute net > Antwort an: [6][18]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu > Betreff: [LUTE] Re: right hand technique -- bending the pinky > > > Dear Alan, dear Jurgen, > > There is something to that effect in all 'oroginal' versions of Besard's instructions, that is: 1603 and 1617. I do not remember if ye text englished contains the passage... > > Best > > Joachim > > > Originalnachricht > Von: Alain Veylit > Gesendet: Mittwoch, 6. MÃÆà �rz 2019 04:32 > Antwort an: [7][19]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu > Cc: Lute net > Betreff: [LUTE] Re: right hand technique -- bending the pinky > > > Jurgen, > > It's been a while and I was quoting from memory... but I am sure I saw > it somewhere - perhaps the instructions translated in English in the > Varietie of Lute Lessons? > > Or maybe the use of dots in Thesaurus Harmonicus ... > > Alain > > On 3/4/19 11:11 PM, Jurgen Frenz wrote: >> It would be totally excellent if you'd find out where Besard made that suggestion. >> Thanks, >> jurgen >> >> >> ---------------------------------- >> "There is a voice that doesn't use words. Listen." >> >> JalÃâl ad-DÃâà �n Muhammad Rumi >> >> à �à �à �à �à �à �à � Original Message à �à �à �à �à �à �à �. >> On Tuesday, March 5, 2019 10:40 AM, Alain Veylit <[8][20]al...@musickshandmade.com> wrote: >> >>> That's odd because I remember O'Dette's advice for the left-hand pinky: >>> plant it vertically on the string instead of laying it flat - which >>> requires more effort. That should mean his left-hand little finger can >>> bend... Not a conclusive proof for the right hand little finger but ... >>> For Renaissance lute, if I am not mistaken, the right-hand little finger >>> is supposed to be parallel to the sound board, just lightly brushing on >>> it, and it should remain extended. >>> >>> Anybody with a good explanation as to how additional basses would alter >>> the right hand position? If I recall, Besard still argued for a mixed >>> technique, thumb-under for fast runs and thumb over for whatever else >>> (chords). I think it is logical that increasing dedication of the thumb >>> to the bass strings does account for the shift in right-hand position, >>> and when you think about it, it is not a small revolution in music >>> history... >>> >>> On 3/4/19 7:12 PM, Richard Brook wrote: >>> >>>> Heard via the late great Pat OBrien Paul O'Dette couldn't bend that finger down by itself. Though I think Pat said in my case the fault was in my head, not in the stars. >>>> D ick Brook >>>> >>>>> On Mar 4, 2019, at 6:58 PM, Alain Veylit [9][21]al...@musickshandmade.com wrote: >>>>> Good one Rainer - Anybody remembers the title of that American series from the 60s-70s where aliens live among us in disguise, and the only sure way to identify them is that they cannot bend their little finger? >>>>> Worth mentioning also about right-hand technique, Jimmy Hendrix playing with his teeth - frustrated leftie, you think? >>>>> On 3/4/19 12:19 PM, Rainer wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> On 04.03.2019 17:11, Alain Veylit wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> And then, there is Django Reinhardt... one big exception to the rules of guitar playing. Experimenting with various techniques has probably always been a popular habit among musicians, whether by choice or force. >>>>>> And Aguado used the 4th finger of the right hand. Perhaps he was an alien :) >>>>>> Rainer >>>>>> To get on or off this list see list information at >>>>>> [1][10][22]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > > --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. [2][11][23]https://www.avast.com/antivirus References 1. [12][24]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 2. [13][25]https://www.avast.com/antivirus -- References 1. [1][26]mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 2. [2][27]mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. [3][28]mailto:mar...@luteshop.co.uk 4. [4][29]mailto:jo.lued...@t-online.de 5. [5][30]mailto:jo.lued...@t-online.de 6. [6][31]mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 7. [7][32]mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 8. [8][33]mailto:al...@musickshandmade.com 9. [9][34]mailto:al...@musickshandmade.com 10. [10][35]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 11. [11][36]https://www.avast.com/antivirus 12. [12][37]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 13. [13][38]https://www.avast.com/antivirus -- References 1. [39]mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 2. [40]mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. [41]mailto:mar...@luteshop.co.uk 4. [42]mailto:jo.lued...@t-online.de 5. [43]mailto:jo.lued...@t-online.de 6. [44]mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 7. [45]mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 8. [46]mailto:al...@musickshandmade.com 9. [47]mailto:al...@musickshandmade.com 10. [48]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 11. [49]https://www.avast.com/antivirus 12. [50]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 13. [51]https://www.avast.com/antivirus This message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed, and may contain information that is privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible for delivering the message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by telephone and return the original message to us at [52]i...@legalaidbuffalo.org -- References 1. mailto:rha...@legalaidbuffalo.org 2. mailto:lex.eisenha...@gmail.com 3. https://aka.ms/ghei36 4. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 5. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 6. mailto:lex.eisenha...@gmail.com 7. mailto:praelu...@hotmail.com 8. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 9. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 10. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 11. mailto:hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu 12. mailto:praelu...@hotmail.com 13. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 14. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 15. mailto:mar...@luteshop.co.uk 16. mailto:jo.lued...@t-online.de 17. mailto:jo.lued...@t-online.de 18. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 19. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 20. mailto:al...@musickshandmade.com 21. mailto:al...@musickshandmade.com 22. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 23. https://www.avast.com/antivirus 24. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 25. https://www.avast.com/antivirus 26. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 27. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 28. mailto:mar...@luteshop.co.uk 29. mailto:jo.lued...@t-online.de 30. mailto:jo.lued...@t-online.de 31. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 32. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 33. mailto:al...@musickshandmade.com 34. mailto:al...@musickshandmade.com 35. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 36. https://www.avast.com/antivirus 37. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 38. https://www.avast.com/antivirus 39. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 40. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 41. mailto:mar...@luteshop.co.uk 42. mailto:jo.lued...@t-online.de 43. mailto:jo.lued...@t-online.de 44. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 45. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 46. mailto:al...@musickshandmade.com 47. mailto:al...@musickshandmade.com 48. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 49. https://www.avast.com/antivirus 50. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 51. https://www.avast.com/antivirus 52. mailto:i...@legalaidbuffalo.org
