Having acquired an 8c lute in late December makes the subject incredible relevant to me. I hope nobody is offended when I put down some personal practical observations without referring to historic evidence. The entire hand position needs to be different, I think. (1) As it is possible to play p-i lines on all courses doing so with m-i ends for me somewhere on the middle F string - the inside of the hand would just mute the high g string because of the pinky that is planted on the sound board with my European average hand. (2) Playing distinctive bass lines on the 7th and 8th course while playing m-i on the upper courses forces (I believe) the hand to turn more like 45 degrees or so towards the strings and not any longer "almost parallel" as is practical for earlier music. The challenge to me is to produce a "gentle" sound and finger nails are a more urgent matter than playing on a 6c lute thumb out. From what people say here I conclude that this is quite a personal matter, individuals have different nail growth and sound ideals. Or would you just lift the pinky? I don't think so because it is the GPS sensor for string geography.
On the images in Jean-Marie's links I find it surprising that the hand is actually almost at 90 degrees to the strings, quite like classical guitar players but the hand is placed at the corner of the bridge, miles away from the rosette. Once again, placing the hand there would automatically turn the hand around even further. Best regards Jürgen ---------------------------------- “There is a voice that doesn’t use words. Listen.” Jalāl ad-Dīn Muhammad Rumi ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ On Tuesday, March 12, 2019 4:42 AM, magnus andersson <maan7...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote: > "Besard's treatise is a bit puzzling because he first instructs his > readers to use a thumb-out technique (except when one has a short > thumb, as Martin has already written), but later describes thumb-index > alteration for diminutions, except when the bass is too active." > I don ´t see any reason for enpuzzlement here, thumb-index alteration > can work great with the thumb stretched out. > A question out of curiosity: I recall having looked through quite a few > of the iconographic sources a while ago, and > to my surprise I can ´t remember seeing that the thumb-inside technique > was being used on any instruments with 7 or more courses. Anyone out > there who can provide any paintings that proves that assumption wrong? > Is it true that thumb-out on 6 courses seem to have been more common > than thumb-in on 7c (or more courses), if we only look at the > iconographic material? > Best wishes, > Magnus > > On Monday, March 11, 2019, 10:12:41 PM GMT+1, Joachim Lüdtke > jo.lued...@t-online.de wrote: > Well, Vallet states that if one finds a single dot beneath a > â(tablature) letter, it is to be plucked with the first finger. Two > small lines mean the second finger, and if there is none of these, the > thumb plays the course. There is a lot of music in in Paradisus Musicus > Testudinis which is without the signs for the second finger, but I do > not think that this means it is to be played thumb under, and only > those pieces which have the sign for the second finger are to be played > thumb out. ;) > Besard's treatise is a bit puzzling because he first instructs his > readers to use a thumb-out technique (except when one has a short > thumb, as Martin has already written), but later describes thumb-index > alteration for diminutions, except when the bass is too active. > In the englished version in Varietie of Lute Lessons, the passages are > C verso and C2 recto. > Dear Ron, > I will look this up in the sources when I am back home on Sunday, but I > think Martin is right. > Best > Joachim > P.S. You are right too, concerning historical playing technique vs what > a lot of us do today, but I would not insist on 1600 as the point from > whence they didn't underthumb their scales anymore > Gesendet von meinem BlackBerry 10-Smartphone. > Originalnachricht > Von: Ron Andrico > Gesendet: Mittwoch, 6. März 2019 13:59 > An: Martin Shepherd; Lute List > Antwort an: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu > Betreff: [LUTE] Re: right hand technique -- bending the pinky > Perhaps the mis-remembered quotation is a conflation of Besard and > Vallet, who recommended thumb-index for fast passages. Nevertheless, > music from around 1600 forward in time should be played with the > thumb > out if we are to follow the written advice and the iconography. I > still see far too may baroque lute and theorbo players using > thumb-under, which is patently absurd given both the historical > precedent and the physical layout of extended bass instruments. > Isn't > it about time lute players moved forward from the guitarist versus > lutenist nonsense from the 1970s and played according to actual > historical examples? > __________________________________________________________________ > From: [2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu <[3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu> on > behalf > of Martin Shepherd <[4]mar...@luteshop.co.uk> > > Sent: Wednesday, March 6, 2019 8:23 AM > To: Lute List > Subject: [LUTE] Re: right hand technique -- bending the pinky > Dear All, > Just from memory - Besard insists on thumb-out technique as being the > best, but allows that people with short thumbs may find thumb-inside > easier. I find it inconceivable that he would change hand position > during a piece, and see no reason why you should not use thumb-index > alternation in fast runs with thumb out - flamenco guitarists do it > > > all > the time. > The fingering dots in the ML lute book (c.1640) give an interesting > indication of this. In Dowland's fantasia (Poulton 1, ML ff.14v-15r) > all runs are marked to be played middle-index, except where a running > passage has infrequent bass notes (f.15, second system) which have no > double dots (meaning middle), so presumably to be be played > thumb-index. Once the bass notes become more frequent (and the speed > of the treble movement stays the same, 3rd and 4th systems) the > middle-index alternation returns. Then a fast cadential formula (end > of > system 5) lacks any double dots and is therefore thumb-index. > I'm sure there are many other examples like this. Nigel North's > recent > talk at the Lute Society gave many interesting examples of RH > fingerings. > Martin > On 06/03/2019 08:06, [5]jo.lued...@t-online.de wrote: > > Sorry: 'original', naturally! > > > > > > Gesendet von meinem BlackBerry 10-Smartphone. > > > Originalnachricht > > > Von: [6]jo.lued...@t-online.de > > > Gesendet: Mittwoch, 6. Mà ¤rz 2019 07:49 > > > An: Lute net > > > Antwort an: [7]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu > > > Betreff: [LUTE] Re: right hand technique -- bending the pinky > > > > > > > > > Dear Alan, dear Jurgen, > > > > > > There is something to that effect in all 'oroginal' versions of > > Besard's instructions, that is: 1603 and 1617. I do not remember if > > > ye > text englished contains the passage... > > > > > Best > > > > > > Joachim > > > > > > > > > Originalnachricht > > > Von: Alain Veylit > > > Gesendet: Mittwoch, 6. Mà ¤rz 2019 04:32 > > > Antwort an: [8]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu > > > Cc: Lute net > > > Betreff: [LUTE] Re: right hand technique -- bending the pinky > > > > > > > > > Jurgen, > > > > > > It's been a while and I was quoting from memory... but I am sure I > > saw > > it somewhere - perhaps the instructions translated in English in > > > the > > Varietie of Lute Lessons? > > > > > > Or maybe the use of dots in Thesaurus Harmonicus ... > > > > > > Alain > > > > > > On 3/4/19 11:11 PM, Jurgen Frenz wrote: > > >> It would be totally excellent if you'd find out where Besard made > > that suggestion. > >> Thanks, > > >> jurgen > > >> > > >> > > >> ---------------------------------- > > >> "There is a voice that doesn't use words. Listen." > > >> > > >> Jalà l ad-Dà «n Muhammad Rumi > > >> > > >> â⬠â⬠â⬠â⬠â⬠â⬠â⬠Original Message â⬠â⬠â⬠> > > â⬠â⬠â⬠â⬠. > >> On Tuesday, March 5, 2019 10:40 AM, Alain Veylit > > <[9]al...@musickshandmade.com> wrote: > > >> > > >>> That's odd because I remember O'Dette's advice for the left-hand > > pinky: > >>> plant it vertically on the string instead of laying it flat - > > > which > >>> requires more effort. That should mean his left-hand little > finger > can > >>> bend... Not a conclusive proof for the right hand little finger > but > ... > >>> For Renaissance lute, if I am not mistaken, the right-hand little > > finger > >>> is supposed to be parallel to the sound board, just lightly > > brushing on > >>> it, and it should remain extended. > > >>> > > >>> Anybody with a good explanation as to how additional basses would > > alter > >>> the right hand position? If I recall, Besard still argued for a > > mixed > >>> technique, thumb-under for fast runs and thumb over for whatever > > else > >>> (chords). I think it is logical that increasing dedication of the > > thumb > >>> to the bass strings does account for the shift in right-hand > > position, > >>> and when you think about it, it is not a small revolution in > > > music > >>> history... > > >>> > > >>> On 3/4/19 7:12 PM, Richard Brook wrote: > > >>> > > >>>> Heard via the late great Pat OBrien Paul O'Dette couldn't bend > > that finger down by itself. Though I think Pat said in my case the > fault was in my head, not in the stars. > >>>> D ick Brook > > >>>> > > >>>>> On Mar 4, 2019, at 6:58 PM, Alain Veylit > > [10]al...@musickshandmade.com wrote: > >>>>> Good one Rainer - Anybody remembers the title of that American > > series from the 60s-70s where aliens live among us in disguise, and > > > the > only sure way to identify them is that they cannot bend their little > finger? > >>>>> Worth mentioning also about right-hand technique, Jimmy Hendrix > > playing with his teeth - frustrated leftie, you think? > >>>>> On 3/4/19 12:19 PM, Rainer wrote: > > >>>>> > > >>>>>> On 04.03.2019 17:11, Alain Veylit wrote: > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>>> And then, there is Django Reinhardt... one big exception to > > > the > rules of guitar playing. Experimenting with various techniques has > probably always been a popular habit among musicians, whether by > choice > or force. > >>>>>> And Aguado used the 4th finger of the right hand. Perhaps he > was > an alien :) > >>>>>> Rainer > > >>>>>> To get on or off this list see list information at > > >>>>>> [1][11]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > [2][12]https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > > References > 1. [13]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > 2. [14]https://www.avast.com/antivirus >  > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > References > > 1. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu > 2. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu > 3. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu > 4. mailto:mar...@luteshop.co.uk > 5. mailto:jo.lued...@t-online.de > 6. mailto:jo.lued...@t-online.de > 7. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu > 8. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu > 9. mailto:al...@musickshandmade.com > 10. mailto:al...@musickshandmade.com > 11. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > 12. https://www.avast.com/antivirus > 13. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > 14. https://www.avast.com/antivirus
