"Foot"note to my previous: Not to be forgotten iwas the extraordinary
musician Joseph Iadone, bass player turned lutenist, associated with
Paul Hindemith. Sui Generis, a lute player like no other; who forged his
own path. He influenced me as well through his old Archive recordings;
even before I discovered Julian Bream.
On 3/12/2019 9:38 AM, Dan Winheld wrote:
Martin Shepherd & Daniel Shoskes have each clearly revealed the
essence of the two horns of this dilemma:
#1. The need to reproduce ALL the exact factors that must come into
play to properly discover (rediscover?) the actual sound worlds of
each & every different plucked instrument from quill plucked Medieval
lutes to last-gasp end of the 18 century lutes. And all the
in-betweens, where most of the current bloodshed is occurring. After
instruments & strings are sorted out, get the hands corrected and the
ears adjusted.
#2. The equally compelling need for a student and lover of these old &
not yet fully understood sound worlds to nevertheless get going and
play this stuff, despite physical limitations and incomplete knowledge.
This tension was clearly seen back during the time Julian Bream
appeared on the scene bringing the lute (yes, of course "his" lute; he
had no other; nor the means to play any other) to the public when
Diana Poulton and others could not. Their task being that of
exploration and study; creating all the necessary groundwork to ensure
that future lutenists would come closer to the ideal of our beloved
idee fixe that only Julian planted in the hearts and minds of so many
of us older lute students.
For some of us, Thumb-under was embraced as the only means to unlock
our twisted wrists from the tyranny of Segovia's draconian "my way or
the highway" approach to playing and teaching. Yes, I used that means
on my first "real" lute, an 8 course, a work of the late master Hugh
Gough, clavichord builder extraordinaire (he declared the lute, "The
last instrument fit for a gentleman to play"). That instrument, so
groundbreaking in its day (1973) exists now as the body of my small
archlute, courtesy of Mel Wong.
I now play that instrument thumb out, but nowhere near the "thumb out"
of Andres Segovia! Same for my other instruments except the 6 course-
a mean lute (pitched at G, a-440 or A, a-392; take your pick) which
becomes greased rocket sports car when played this way.
I have a Baroque lute student- no longer young- with arthritis issues
in his hands. All he wants is to play his lute- a fine Burkholtzer
version by Dan Larson- any way possible given his conditions. We
accommodate, because we have to. The lute, like any other musical
instrument of any time, place, or condition of humanity; is to bring a
little joy, pleasure, solace, relief, and enlightenment into one's
life in a world already fraught with enough trouble and annoyance to
go around.
-But do carry on! Great discussion, actually. Dan W.
On 3/12/2019 6:15 AM, Daniel Shoskes wrote:
Martin: I see no contradiction between being genuinely interested in
what historical lutes sounded like and how they were played and my
comments below which agree with Besard that if your hand can’t
physically achieve the ideal position, you can make adjustments. The
classical guitar comment referred to how I played CG in my youth with
the thumb out and the wrist internally rotated, a position that I can
no longer sustain on the CG and which I agree is not synonymous with
thumb out lute technique. I do agree that as more players experiment
with thumb out while also trying to replicate what we know or suspect
about distance from the bridge and gut string tension that it may
change how we hear and interpret the music.
You might be pleased to know however that my theorbo is double strung
in gut!
Danny
On Mar 12, 2019, at 8:44 AM, Martin Shepherd <mar...@luteshop.co.uk>
wrote:
I'm genuinely interested in what historical lutes sounded like and
how they were played, so I'm not so interested in a "whatever works
for you" approach, however popular it may be, along with single
strung "archlutes", microscopic theorboes, and other horrors which
are nothing to do with historical evidence.
I think if there is a "dominant" lute technique it is "thumb
out"(TO), because it certainly existed in the 16th C and became the
normal technique from c.1600 on. But when I look at the
iconography, like Jurgen I see fingers at right angles to the
strings, and even a suggestion that strings were approached from
beneath (as happens when I try this position, because my middle
finger is long compared to the others). Nails, even if very short,
come into the picture too. So I think we have a long way to go to
appreciate the sound and technique of TO, and (as with the first
attempts at TU in the 1970s) we have a lot of experimentation to do
to arrive at something which feels natural and efficient. It's not
just a question of reverting to "classical guitar" technique -
whatever you conceive that to be - but a more difficult process of
exploration and experimentation.
Martin
On 12/03/2019 11:48, Daniel Shoskes wrote:
Jürgen: Absolutely hit the nail on the head. It’s all about the
sound and people have different hand anatomy and physiology.
Iconography and fingering is an important starting point but if it
doesn’t fit your hand (and nail growth) it shouldn’t stop you
from playing the music you want. Have seen and heard fantastic 6
course performances thumb under, but also thumb out with pi on
runs. Ronn McF has one of the best right hands in the business and
plays with great speed and tone color variation playing thumb under
on his 10 course. Best baroque lute concert I heard last year saw
the right thumb sneaking under the index when they crossed.
Brilliant West Coast baroque band led by an archlute playing thumb
under. I’ve also heard awful thumb under 6 course playing and
painfully poor baroque lute thumb out playing.
What’s more important than thumb position? Hitting both courses
cleanly with good tone and volume control, strong weak alternation
in the appropriate music whether pi or im, playing “rest
stroke†on baroque instruments as default and as a rare special
effect on earlier instruments, bringing out dance rhythms and
polyphony when present, using ornamentation and improvisation,
savoring the sound of low tension gut strings. If you need to play
Renaissance music thumb out, have at it. If you have a short thumb
and can’t get it out comfortably, focus on sound production and
playing musically and all is well. I’ve been given that advice in
lessons and masterclasses by numerous teachers. I have both a short
thumb and a wrist injured by decades of doing vascular and
microsurgery and the full thumb out of my classical guitar days is
painful and prevents my fingers from getting a decent sound. i
won’t let that stop me from enjoying all my ins!
truments, from my 4 course Re!
n!
ai!
ssance guitar to my 13 course German theorbo.
Danny
On Mar 12, 2019, at 2:50 AM, Jurgen Frenz
<eye-and-ear-cont...@protonmail.com> wrote:
Having acquired an 8c lute in late December makes the subject
incredible relevant to me. I hope nobody is offended when I put
down some personal practical observations without referring to
historic evidence.
The entire hand position needs to be different, I think. (1) As it
is possible to play p-i lines on all courses doing so with m-i
ends for me somewhere on the middle F string - the inside of the
hand would just mute the high g string because of the pinky that
is planted on the sound board with my European average hand. (2)
Playing distinctive bass lines on the 7th and 8th course while
playing m-i on the upper courses forces (I believe) the hand to
turn more like 45 degrees or so towards the strings and not any
longer "almost parallel" as is practical for earlier music.
The challenge to me is to produce a "gentle" sound and finger
nails are a more urgent matter than playing on a 6c lute thumb
out. From what people say here I conclude that this is quite a
personal matter, individuals have different nail growth and sound
ideals.
Or would you just lift the pinky? I don't think so because it is
the GPS sensor for string geography.
On the images in Jean-Marie's links I find it surprising that the
hand is actually almost at 90 degrees to the strings, quite like
classical guitar players but the hand is placed at the corner of
the bridge, miles away from the rosette. Once again, placing the
hand there would automatically turn the hand around even further.
Best regards
Jürgen
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