The only photo of Joseph Iadone I have seen shows him playing with the
thumb out like Segovia plus with the wrist angled sharply like some
mislead guitarists, begging carpal tunnel tendinitis. However, as you
point out Dan, he must have been a fine musician before he got to the
lute.
A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E.
On Mar 12, 2019, at 9:51 AM, Dan Winheld <[1]dwinh...@lmi.net> wrote:
"Foot"note to my previous: Not to be forgotten iwas the extraordinary
musician Joseph Iadone, bass player turned lutenist, associated with
Paul Hindemith. Sui Generis, a lute player like no other; who forged
his own path. He influenced me as well through his old Archive
recordings; even before I discovered Julian Bream.
On 3/12/2019 9:38 AM, Dan Winheld wrote:
Martin Shepherd & Daniel Shoskes have each clearly revealed the
essence of the two horns of this dilemma:
#1. The need to reproduce ALL the exact factors that must come into
play to properly discover (rediscover?) the actual sound worlds of
each & every different plucked instrument from quill plucked
Medieval lutes to last-gasp end of the 18 century lutes. And all the
in-betweens, where most of the current bloodshed is occurring.
After instruments & strings are sorted out, get the hands corrected
and the ears adjusted.
#2. The equally compelling need for a student and lover of these old
& not yet fully understood sound worlds to nevertheless get going
and play this stuff, despite physical limitations and incomplete
knowledge.
This tension was clearly seen back during the time Julian Bream
appeared on the scene bringing the lute (yes, of course "his" lute;
he had no other; nor the means to play any other) to the public when
Diana Poulton and others could not. Their task being that of
exploration and study; creating all the necessary groundwork to
ensure that future lutenists would come closer to the ideal of our
beloved idee fixe that only Julian planted in the hearts and minds
of so many of us older lute students.
For some of us, Thumb-under was embraced as the only means to unlock
our twisted wrists from the tyranny of Segovia's draconian "my way
or the highway" approach to playing and teaching. Yes, I used that
means on my first "real" lute, an 8 course, a work of the late
master Hugh Gough, clavichord builder extraordinaire (he declared
the lute, "The last instrument fit for a gentleman to play"). That
instrument, so groundbreaking in its day (1973) exists now as the
body of my small archlute, courtesy of Mel Wong.
I now play that instrument thumb out, but nowhere near the "thumb
out" of Andres Segovia! Same for my other instruments except the 6
course- a mean lute (pitched at G, a-440 or A, a-392; take your
pick) which becomes greased rocket sports car when played this way.
I have a Baroque lute student- no longer young- with arthritis
issues in his hands. All he wants is to play his lute- a fine
Burkholtzer version by Dan Larson- any way possible given his
conditions. We accommodate, because we have to. The lute, like any
other musical instrument of any time, place, or condition of
humanity; is to bring a little joy, pleasure, solace, relief, and
enlightenment into one's life in a world already fraught with enough
trouble and annoyance to go around.
-But do carry on! Great discussion, actually. Dan W.
On 3/12/2019 6:15 AM, Daniel Shoskes wrote:
Martin: I see no contradiction between being genuinely interested in
what historical lutes sounded like and how they were played and my
comments below which agree with Besard that if your hand canââ¬â¢t
physically achieve the ideal position, you can make adjustments. The
classical guitar comment referred to how I played CG in my youth
with the thumb out and the wrist internally rotated, a position that
I can no longer sustain on the CG and which I agree is not
synonymous with thumb out lute technique. I do agree that as more
players experiment with thumb out while also trying to replicate
what we know or suspect about distance from the bridge and gut
string tension that it may change how we hear and interpret the
music.
You might be pleased to know however that my theorbo is double
strung in gut!
Danny
On Mar 12, 2019, at 8:44 AM, Martin Shepherd
<[2]mar...@luteshop.co.uk> wrote:
I'm genuinely interested in what historical lutes sounded like and
how they were played, so I'm not so interested in a "whatever works
for you" approach, however popular it may be, along with single
strung "archlutes", microscopic theorboes, and other horrors which
are nothing to do with historical evidence.
I think if there is a "dominant" lute technique it is "thumb
out"(TO), because it certainly existed in the 16th C and became the
normal technique from c.1600 on. But when I look at the
iconography, like Jurgen I see fingers at right angles to the
strings, and even a suggestion that strings were approached from
beneath (as happens when I try this position, because my middle
finger is long compared to the others). Nails, even if very short,
come into the picture too. So I think we have a long way to go to
appreciate the sound and technique of TO, and (as with the first
attempts at TU in the 1970s) we have a lot of experimentation to do
to arrive at something which feels natural and efficient. It's not
just a question of reverting to "classical guitar" technique -
whatever you conceive that to be - but a more difficult process of
exploration and experimentation.
Martin
On 12/03/2019 11:48, Daniel Shoskes wrote:
Jürgen: Absolutely hit the nail on the head. Itââ¬â¢s all about the
sound and people have different hand anatomy and physiology.
Iconography and fingering is an important starting point but if it
doesnââ¬â¢t fit your hand (and nail growth) it shouldnââ¬â¢t stop you
from playing the music you want. Have seen and heard fantastic 6
course performances thumb under, but also thumb out with pi on runs.
Ronn McF has one of the best right hands in the business and plays
with great speed and tone color variation playing thumb under on his
10 course. Best baroque lute concert I heard last year saw the right
thumb sneaking under the index when they crossed. Brilliant West
Coast baroque band led by an archlute playing thumb under. Iââ¬â¢ve
also heard awful thumb under 6 course playing and painfully poor
baroque lute thumb out playing.
Whatââ¬â¢s more important than thumb position? Hitting both courses
cleanly with good tone and volume control, strong weak alternation
in the appropriate music whether pi or im, playing ââ¬Årest
strokeââ¬Â
on baroque instruments as default and as a rare special effect on
earlier instruments, bringing out dance rhythms and polyphony when
present, using ornamentation and improvisation, savoring the sound
of low tension gut strings. If you need to play Renaissance music
thumb out, have at it. If you have a short thumb and canââ¬â¢t get it
out comfortably, focus on sound production and playing musically and
all is well. Iââ¬â¢ve been given that advice in lessons and
masterclasses by numerous teachers. I have both a short thumb and a
wrist injured by decades of doing vascular and microsurgery and the
full thumb out of my classical guitar days is painful and prevents
my fingers from getting a decent sound. i wonââ¬â¢t let that stop me
from enjoying all my ins!
truments, from my 4 course Re!
n!
ai!
ssance guitar to my 13 course German theorbo.
Danny
On Mar 12, 2019, at 2:50 AM, Jurgen Frenz
<[3]eye-and-ear-cont...@protonmail.com> wrote:
Having acquired an 8c lute in late December makes the subject
incredible relevant to me. I hope nobody is offended when I put down
some personal practical observations without referring to historic
evidence.
The entire hand position needs to be different, I think. (1) As it
is possible to play p-i lines on all courses doing so with m-i ends
for me somewhere on the middle F string - the inside of the hand
would just mute the high g string because of the pinky that is
planted on the sound board with my European average hand. (2)
Playing distinctive bass lines on the 7th and 8th course while
playing m-i on the upper courses forces (I believe) the hand to turn
more like 45 degrees or so towards the strings and not any longer
"almost parallel" as is practical for earlier music.
The challenge to me is to produce a "gentle" sound and finger nails
are a more urgent matter than playing on a 6c lute thumb out. From
what people say here I conclude that this is quite a personal
matter, individuals have different nail growth and sound ideals.
Or would you just lift the pinky? I don't think so because it is the
GPS sensor for string geography.
On the images in Jean-Marie's links I find it surprising that the
hand is actually almost at 90 degrees to the strings, quite like
classical guitar players but the hand is placed at the corner of the
bridge, miles away from the rosette. Once again, placing the hand
there would automatically turn the hand around even further.
Best regards
Jürgen
----------------------------------
ââ¬ÅThere is a voice that doesnââ¬â¢t use words. Listen.ââ¬Â
JalÃÂl ad-Dën Muhammad Rumi
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