On 05/13/2018 01:34 PM, Uwe Stöhr wrote: > Am 12.05.2018 um 05:13 schrieb Richard Kimberly Heck: >>> Please make your decision and tell me. >> >> Others can speak up if they wish, but I believe we have made ourselves >> clear. We will not release an official Windows installer that updates >> people's MikTeX installations without asking their permission. > > OK, this was clear since about 2 months. Why haven't we discussed at > all? I made some arguments, see below and haven't heard a good reason > against them.
We discussed it endlessly. You gave your reasons, we gave ours, and we seem to be at a stalemate. > It is also interesting that non-Win developers state they have better > arguments without contesting the arguments from the Win developer. As JMarc mentioned, he uses Windows all the time, and yet he agrees with the rest of the development team. I used Windows for years before switching to Linux, and I've installed Windows 10 both in a virtual machine and separately just to be able to check out these kinds of issues (as well as to explore Windows-specific bugs). There are tons of users who have now expressed their opinions on this. Do none of us count? Why not? I am sorry that the relevant issues here have gotten mixed up with more general issues about the Windows installer. As I said, I (and I think many others) wonder about whether it is a good idea to try to package all of LyX's dependencies the way you are. I am sorry that my use of the English idiom "I wonder whether it's wise..." misled you. That simply means: I wonder whether it's the best course.... It's a very ordinary phrase. But that's not what's at issue now. The ONLY question at the moment is about a warning dialog at the outset: One that would tell users that the installer will update MikTeX, direct them to a wiki page with more information, and give them the opportunity to cancel. That's it. No one is suggesting that you should change the installer in any other way, and if I manage to build the installer myself, then that is exactly what it would be like: The same as yours, with that dialog. I understand that you think this would confuse 'ordinary users'. But even if you are right, and it seems to me that you are underestimating the intelligence of 'ordinary users', then (a) we can figure out some way to help them and (b) that is out-weighed by the fact that updating MikTeX can cause serious problems for some users. That is the 'harm' we've been talking about. Breaking people's systems is not a trivial matter, as José and many others have said. > Average user can misunderstand it with a probability of 50%. Those who > misunderstood it and denied the update can end up with an unusable LyX. I think this is the issue that most matters. As I see it, this **cannot happen**. If the user cancels the install, then NOTHING HAPPENS. The proposal I and others have been making is that we have a dialog *at the very beginning*. If the user cancels, then NOTHING HAPPENS. Their system is left exactly the same as if they had never run the installer at all. There is therefore no possible way that running the installer and denying can have a bad effect. It's a NO-OP if the user cancels. I also understand that there are other things that could happen, that have nothing to do with the LyX installer, that would break people's MikTeX installations. That is unfortunate, but not our problem, and not something for which we should risk breaking other users' installations. It seems to me that your worry is that, if we don't update MikTeX on the update to 2.3.0, then there are users whose MikTeX will never get updated, and then their systems will be broken. Maybe so. But that, again, is not our problem. It's a bug in MikTeX that causes this, and the problem should be fixed there. I know that we sometimes 'work around' bugs in other programs, but not when it will break stuff for other users. Even if, as 'experts', they can (maybe) fix it. >> If you refuse to include such a dialog, then I guess you should build >> your installer separately. > > I refuse because this doesn't fit with Windows behavior as a service. > [...] So I will now set up a new OpenSource project besides LyX for > the installer. OK. But please do not expect this *fork* to be advertised on the LyX download page once we have a new installer. Especially since, after not very long, this whole update issue will cease to be an issue. > Since Windows changes e.g. registry things, programs like MiKTeX must > change the way they work from time to time - if they like it or not. > So must do LyX! Even *the MikTeX maintainer* has made it clear that we should not update MikTeX without asking permission from the user. Isn't that good enough? Riki
