On Wed, 2008-06-25 at 23:36 +0200, ext Tim Teulings wrote: > I don't think it is fair to blame the developers without looking for > reasons. I'm sure there are reasons for the current situation (some > already responded to your mail). The situation needs discussion but not > simple blaming. Situation is frustrating but worse could happen. > The situation needs actions, not discussions. We already had a lot of discussions. May be it's now better to act, not to speak.
> > After we accomplished Misha's plan[1] several months ago[2] we had no > > feedback and almost nobody used autobuilder and promoter. > > I can speak for others but I personally tried to find a solution between > improving existing and developing new software, switching the employer > (plus working overtime), moving to a new home, buying a new car and > other stuff. I'm not payed for developing open source software so other > things have priority. > I'm also not payed for this. May be I should stop sending emails from my Nokia acoount. People seems to be confused. > > With this attitude I don't think it's feasible to go further and develop > > additional features which will not be used again. Instead we should > > probably concentrate on encouraging maintainers to actually use the > > tools and to give feedback. From this point of view Niels proposal is > > more than enough for now. > > So back to the possible reasons for the situation (I cannot speak for > others, so other developer please add or correct!): > * Nokia did not give a long term release date but expects developer to > just be prepared. I can understand why Nokia does not give long term > release date (the reasons are obvious) but as a result it must ramp up > such stuff far ealier (should have made advertisment and plans for > strategie for diablo much earlier) to get a result in time. Perhaps > annoucement was made but at least me was still suprized by some aspects. > Assume that every (re)action of an open-source developer may take 2-4 > weeks, even if a task of 2 hours is to be completed. > OK, let's wait for next 4 weeks then :) > * Nokia must realize that the current autobuilder and extra repository > infrastructure possibly still give no real gain for me and possibly > others. As long as I can add *.install files to my own repository in the > downloads section having an own repository is simpler than using the > autobuilder. Community must realize possible benefits of having central repository. It seems that 'Repository mess' discussion was useless. I'm not surprised by this fact at all. > The current infrastructure: > + Is slow (autobuilder needs *much* longer than my local computer) > and currently even seems to be overloaded. > + There seem to be smaller bugs, making some builds fail for no reason > + Needs more initial setup to be usable > + Cannot handle dependencies, neither does it seem to compile packages > in queueing order (so having one library and multiple depending > applications I cannot "upload and forget"). > + I cannot push packages for multiple OS versions on the same time > via the web interface (will take a look at dput) > + Does not build packages for older distributions, so I still have to > compile packages for older OS version myself, having twice the effort. > + Does not support other niftly stuff like lint etc... > + Integration with downloads could be much better > + extras is more a mess than an really atractive place to be for my > packages ;-) Quality was requested but control and enforcement seems to > be weak. > + Suggestions for improvements will not be rejected but the reaction > suggests that things will take a long time (and suggests that I can slow > done pace, too, which is definitely the wrong signal ;-)). > What I can see here is pure blame without any wish to improve situation. But it's better then zero feedback we had before. So my blame works :)! I don't agree with some of your statements. Others make sense and I'll try to address them. Especially dependency handling. It's already in my todo list. > The current situation is the direct result of this and for me personally > no suprise (in fact in the last big discussion I participated I even > hinted that this will happen). > > However I don't think that keeping things the way they are or at least > slowing down the development of this the totally wrong way (under given > goals). This is the totally wrong signal and will kill extras > repository. Instead a way to accelerate the development and invest in > improvement must be found. It looks like Nokia is waiting for the > community to jump in, but possibly critical mass is not yet reached for > this. Or why we discuss 2010 agenda? > > How? > > If the community cannot help or does not want to help (because hacking > software is cooler than improving infrastructure?) Nokia possibly must > either help, extpectations must be lowered, or another strategy must be > found. For me it looks like we are still no team. > Community is helping. Autobuilder, promotion interface and current rebuild initiative are results of this help. Regards, --- Ed _______________________________________________ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
