Brian, your analysis is spot-on.
All of my MM2 instances support non-profit organizations which cannot
afford the cost of the Internet bandwidth for a second-hand server in
someone's basement, much less a part-time sysadmin. *_I_* am the only
technical staff they have, and I am unpaid. So yes, all of my Mailman
instances run on an assortment of those "cheap cPanel hosts" you think
so little of. And I'm paying for most of them, myself.
I am retired, but my entire career was spent in mainframe OS systems &
application software development, installation, and support. I have a
great deal of experience recovering from the premature adoption of
/New! Improved!
/system software. If it is a problem for a sixty year old software
behemoth like IBM, I have absolutely no confidence that a volunteer
open source effort is immune.
////
So *you are absolutely correct about the issue here*: I am
volunteering my time & talents so there is /_no _//_money_/, and I
have enough experience that there is a _/justified /__/fear/_.
What I don't understand is your vitriolic objection to Jim's offer.
How is that any skin off your nose? Do you see this as a zero-sum
game in which every MM2 instance that doesn't "upgrade" is a threat to
MM3? If it's as superior as you claim, there should be a thunderous
stampede to adopt MM3. The bazaar will speak eloquently. What,
exactly, is the cock you have in this pit?
Bottom Line: As long as there are inexpensive cPanel hosts running
Mailman 2, *I have no choice*. So I greatly appreciate Jim's offer
to pick up the burden and allow Mark to move on.
-Chip-
"I shoot dumps for fun. They are the ultimate Sudoku."
On 8/26/2020 5:05 PM, Brian Carpenter wrote:
On 8/26/20 3:14 PM, Chip Davis wrote:
All of my dozen Mailman instances run on shared servers. I have no
control over the release/distro on which I am hosted. But my
providers have a bazillion (est.) customers running Mailman2 and,
for a number of reasons, are not terribly eager to force us all to
convert to Mailman3. By all reports, it is not an easy migration,
nor are all features supported. From their standpoint, maintaining
a stable, if backlevel, Python2 to support MM2 is merely a matter
of DASD, with far lower support costs than moving to Py3/MM3.
I think Jim's conclusion of MM2's continued viability is valid, and
the idea of having a subset of the dev team continue to
support/enhance it is a good idea. And I like the "Classic
Mailman" moniker. :-)
Python 3 is already a part of all major linux distributions. So the
framework should already be there for a Mailman 3 installation. As
for migrating a Mailman 2 list to Mailman 3, that is easy. The
Mailman developers have come up with 2 scripts that do a great job
of migrating Mailman 2 lists into a Mailman 3 server.
What happens when another "Dmarc" occurs? That event dramatically
impacted mailing lists everywhere. At the time, only Mailman 2
needed to be patched and the Mailman developers did a great job of
doing so quickly. However would that happen now if such an event
repeated itself? Most likely not. Mailman 3 would get the attention
and rightfully so.
You are all looking at the wrong thing here. The real question here
is why are you not wanting to move to a Mailman 3 environment? It's
not hard to install anymore. It has a future. It is modern. It as a
long life expectancy and, most importantly, its being supported and
developed.
I think the issue here is money and fear. Cheap cPanel hosts include
Mailman 2 with their budget hosting packages and I am pretty sure
that is who you are using. Well fine, then let those hosts take on
the responsibility of keeping Mailman 2 up to date. That is what
open source is all about. For me, Mailman 2 is a dinosaur and its
interface is over 20 years old. Mailman 3 is entering the world of
modern web development and that is a great thing for users of
Mailman. There are still users of Majordomo. But they are very few
now and for good reason. Mailing lists are evolving and have moved on.
Get off a ship that is no longer sailing ahead and wants to instead
to permanently anchor in place. It's ok, the new ship is more modern
and has AC!
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