For abuse handling, the M3AAWG published at least these two guidelines: - https://www.m3aawg.org/sites/default/files/document/M3AAWG_Hosting_Abuse_BCPs-2015-03.pdf - https://www.m3aawg.org/sites/default/files/document/MAAWG_Abuse_Desk_Common_Practices.pdf
(and potentially this one https://www.m3aawg.org/sites/default/files/document/MAAWG_Anti-Abuse_Product_Evaluation_BCP.pdf ) However, postmaster@ is not about abuse. It has to exist, but if nothing else is done then it's missing the point. While abuse _must_ be handled, taking time and resources to handle the problems of senders who don't manage to deliver emails is a far lower priority. To stick back to the initial topic, we can expect ab...@alice.it to process any abuse matter (spam, botnets, etc.), but not to take care of deliverability issues. We can then only hope that there's someone reading postmas...@alice.it. -- <https://www.splio.com> Benjamin 2017-08-18 20:46 GMT+02:00 Aaron C. de Bruyn via mailop <mailop@mailop.org>: > > Are you serious? or simply joking? > > Serious. No one is beholden to RFCs. They are guidelines for > interoperability. I don't care if one postmaster@ address is staffed > by a human response 24/7, or if another is staffed 8x5 and at other > times auto-responds with "we'll investigate and get back to you during > business hours". > > It's annoying if abuse@ goes to /dev/null, but no one controls my mail > servers except me. You control yours. You can absolutely decide to > reject my mail if I /dev/null abuse. I've blacklisted a few domains > due to lack of abuse and postmaster addresses--but usually they have a > lot more problems than just failing to accept abuse mail. > > I use rfc-clueless to help score inbound messages on a few of my mail > servers. > > > I keep repeating facts: > > Ok--so e-mail the rfc-clueless people and explain your point and how > you think their listing service is behaving badly. See what they say. > It certainly sounds like an unintended block. > > > I didn't ask your permission to start my own list ;-) I simply stated > > that I hope someone will start a dnsbl for people dev/nulling > > postmaster and YOU said that rfc-clueless is a solution while it is > > NOT an asnwer to my dream. > > I get that. I'm not trying to pick a fight or anything, just > suggesting that if you have a better way of doing it, do it. > Hell--you might end up with a bunch of mail admins who feel the same > way and start using your service. > > I'm in the path of the eclipse, so I'm going to retreat to my > underground bunker now as everyone's starting to go crazy around here. > ;) > > -A > > > > > On Fri, Aug 18, 2017 at 10:56 AM, Stefano Bagnara <mai...@bago.org> wrote: > > On 18 August 2017 at 19:25, Aaron C. de Bruyn <aa...@heyaaron.com> > wrote: > >> As a postmaster or abuse contact, I'm not clicking on random links > >> sent to me by robots to verify anything. ;) > >> > >> There's a difference between *rejecting* mail sent to an address and > >> *accepting* it and routing it to /dev/null. > >> > >>> "Pretending that this is for the "RFC" good sounds like a joke" > >> > >> If I recall correctly, the RFC says you have to *accept* mail for > >> those addresses--it doesn't specify what you are required to do with > >> them, or how long it should take. > > > > Are you serious? or simply joking? > > > >> Should they block any address that doesn't respond in 15 minutes? > >> Maybe an hour? How about a week? How often to you re-verify? Is it > >> a big company like Microsoft that might staff their abuse team 24/7, > >> or is it a small outfit where they have an abuse contact but maybe you > >> caught him or her during their week or two of vacation every year? > > > > They already have timings for most of they checks. > > IMO they could even wait 1 month and then list you. If you succesfully > > unlist then you get some more time the next time (like any blacklist > > deal with removal). > > > > I keep repeating facts: > > - postmaster@app.mydomain works and have a human dealing with it but > > rfc-clueless list it because "mydomain" (not app.mydomain) have MX > > records on google and those MX does not accept "postmaster" email > > (with no domain specification). But my email is > > postmaster@app.mydomain not postmaster@mydomain and the RFC clearly > > doesn't mix MX for an host with MX for the domain of that host (and > > BTW postmaster@mydomain works too). > > - postmas...@alice.it instead is not listead while it /dev/null any > email. > > > > This means that rfc-clueless does not answer to my "wish" unlike you > > replied. I don't care to define if rfc-clueless is right or not doing > > that, it simply doesn't do what I wished. I didn't mention > > rfc-clueless until you said it was the answer to my wish. > > > > While I explained WHY it didn't answer to my wish I also explained WHY > > I think it is not even giving "useful" informations (are you really > > more happy when a domain HAVE postmaster@ devnulled instead of > > rejecting postmaster? IMO it is worse because you keep waiting an > > answer). > > > > Also, AFAIK the message rfc-clueless send to test emails is not RFC > > compliant because it doesn't have an "header" and from my reading of > > the latest spec, even the obsolete MIME syntax now requires an header > > and an header include at least a ":" char and the rfc-clueless message > > (from their logs) does not include one. > > > >> Anyways, if you want to start your own blacklist based on sending out > >> validation links, feel free. > > > > I didn't ask your permission to start my own list ;-) I simply stated > > that I hope someone will start a dnsbl for people dev/nulling > > postmaster and YOU said that rfc-clueless is a solution while it is > > NOT an asnwer to my dream. > > > > enjoy the weekend, > > Stefano > > > >> > >> -A > >> > >> On Fri, Aug 18, 2017 at 9:26 AM, Stefano Bagnara <mai...@bago.org> > wrote: > >>> It is not difficult to detect addresses that never respond.. you send > >>> them a link to a page protected by captcha, if they don't clic or > >>> fails the captcha then the email is unsupervisioned. They do something > >>> similar to "unlist".. > >>> > >>> Please note that I wrote: > >>>> Maybe there should be a dnsbl for domains /dev/nulling postmaster@ > >>>> address and not only for the one not accepting postmaster/abuse > >>>> recipient ;-) > >>> And you answered that rfc-clueless was an already existing dnsbl for > >>> that: I gave them a try but they failed, so I posted the "result". > >>> > >>> The fact is that they list my "app.mailvox.it" domain because > >>> "mailvox.it" shares an MX with "Gmail" (when postmaster@ both domains > >>> works and is read) and gmail does not accept email to "postmaster" > >>> (with no domain specification) but they don't list alice.it that is > >>> dev-nulling postmaster. Pretending that this is for the "RFC" good > >>> sounds like a joke, to me, but they host the list, so they have the > >>> right to write the rules (I can simply explain people why I suggest to > >>> not use that list). > >>> > >>> So I still hope someone will make a list for domains that dev/null > >>> email to postmaster@domain because rfc-clueless "POSTMASTER" list, > >>> unfortunately, doesn't do that. > >>> > >>> Stefano > >>> > >>> > >>> On 18 August 2017 at 17:53, Aaron C. de Bruyn <aa...@heyaaron.com> > wrote: > >>>> Hmm...I've used rfc-clueless.org for years, and it's predecessor > >>>> rfc-ignorant for a long time before that and I've never had problems > >>>> with it. > >>>> > >>>> Does the postmaster@ address exist (i.e. accepts mail) or does it say > >>>> that postmaster@ doesn't exist? > >>>> > >>>> I think they only track domains that refuse to accept postmaster@, > >>>> abuse@, etc...not domains that accept it and never respond because > >>>> it's difficult to automatically detect addresses that never respond. > >>>> > >>>> -A > >>>> > >>>> On Fri, Aug 18, 2017 at 2:06 AM, Stefano Bagnara <mai...@bago.org> > wrote: > >>>>> On 7 August 2017 at 17:27, Aaron C. de Bruyn <aa...@heyaaron.com> > wrote: > >>>>>> It exists: http://rfc-clueless.org/ :) > >>>>> > >>>>> I confirm it doesn't work: http://rfc-clueless.org/lookup/alice.it > >>>>> I submitted it to the postmaster last time I didn't get an answer... > >>>>> it shown as pending for a while and then disappeared. > >>>>> Still I have to find someone that ever received an answer after > >>>>> writing to their postmaster@ address. > >>>>> > >>>>> Stefano > >>>>> > >>>>> -- > >>>>> Stefano Bagnara > >>>>> Apache James/jDKIM/jSPF > >>>>> VOXmail/Mosaico.io/VoidLabs > >>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> -A > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On Mon, Aug 7, 2017 at 7:19 AM, Stefano Bagnara <mai...@bago.org> > wrote: > >>>>>>> Hi Lindani, > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> we're an italian ESP and we never had success contacting Alice.it > postmaster. > >>>>>>> Alice.it is the freemail domain of the biggest telecom operator in > >>>>>>> italy (Telecom Italia, now named TIM). > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> We never had major deliverability issues (blocks/junking) there, > but > >>>>>>> sometimes their server are very slow (don't know if it is > throttling > >>>>>>> or simply overload) and queues get very big (last time was the past > >>>>>>> february and lasted a couple of weeks). We use a very very high > >>>>>>> timeout for them (20 minutes, instead of 2 minutes we use for > everyone > >>>>>>> else) because we experienced double deliveries due to timeout on > our > >>>>>>> side after the ending DATA "." (the very point the RFC says the > server > >>>>>>> should try to answer as fast as possible to avoid double delivery). > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Once (a couple of years ago) I also tried contacting them because > of a > >>>>>>> bad vulnerability in their webmail but I received no answers to > that > >>>>>>> too... > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I also have friends buying servers from Telecom Italia (so they are > >>>>>>> customers) and they also had no success getting in touch with a > >>>>>>> postmaster for alice.it . > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Maybe there should be a dnsbl for domains /dev/nulling postmaster@ > >>>>>>> address and not only for the one not accepting postmaster/abuse > >>>>>>> recipient ;-) > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> You may want to try > >>>>>>> postmaster@(alice.it|aliceposta.it|tim.it|telecom.it|telecom > italia.com|retail.telecomitalia.it) > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> With abuses you may want to try > >>>>>>> ab...@retail.telecomitalia.it > >>>>>>> ab...@telecomitalia.it > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> and the only one that ever answered an email to us (a lot of years > ago): > >>>>>>> staff...@telecomitalia.it > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Their only known interactive communication channel is twitter: > >>>>>>> @tim_official ... maybe you will have success tweeting them in > >>>>>>> "public". > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Good luck and let us know how it goes. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Stefano > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>> Stefano Bagnara > >>>>>>> Apache James/jDKIM/jSPF > >>>>>>> VOXmail/Mosaico.io/VoidLabs > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> On 2 August 2017 at 16:10, Lindani Tshabangu via mailop > >>>>>>> <mailop@mailop.org> wrote: > >>>>>>>> Hello, > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Anyone who can assist with a contact at Alice.it or point me to > where I can > >>>>>>>> get one? > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Kind regards > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> ____________________ > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Lindani Tshabangu > >>>>>>>> Deliverability EMEA | GROUPON > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> ltshaba...@groupon.com > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>> mailop mailing list > >>>>>>> mailop@mailop.org > >>>>>>> https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> mailop mailing list > >>>>> mailop@mailop.org > >>>>> https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> mailop mailing list > >>> mailop@mailop.org > >>> https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop > > > > _______________________________________________ > > mailop mailing list > > mailop@mailop.org > > https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop > > _______________________________________________ > mailop mailing list > mailop@mailop.org > https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop >
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