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I certainly think so. I think that ruling classes are capable of learning from historical experience. I see no reason to expect that today's ruling classes will necessarily be content to wait around for the workers' movement to pull itself together before taking action against them. I think in a situation like the one facing Ukraine, there is no reason to think that the ruling class might not want to be able to take preemptive before a left-wing can arise that might be able to frustrate their plans for that country. Jim Farmelant http://independent.academia.edu/JimFarmelant http://www.foxymath.com Learn or Review Basic Math ---------- Original Message ---------- From: Charles Faulkner <lacena...@comcast.net> Subject: Re: [Marxism] Fascism? Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2014 00:04:19 +0000 (UTC) andrew, just a question to you, louis or anyone because i agree with your analysis and direction of your inquiries, but i am concerned about a too limited definition, perhaps historically limited, of fascism given the capacity of capital to incorporate lessons from nazi germany and the relative success of neutralizing the working class during the same time. do you agree we should have a more current/flexible definition of fascism nearly 70 years after the fall of historical fascism? much has happened since then. it seems we could do so without forgetting trotsky, neumann, et al. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew Pollack" <acpolla...@gmail.com> To: "Charles Faulkner" <lacena...@comcast.net> Sent: Monday, March 10, 2014 4:33:47 PM Subject: Re: [Marxism] Fascism? ====================================================================== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. ====================================================================== sorry,I put this on the wrong thread. Here it is again in the proper one: Lou will certainly provide his own answer, but let me say why I appreciate his insistence on being precise on this issue. Fascism was analyzed by Trotsky as a very particular tool used by the ruling class, with a particular mass base wielded in particular ways against particular working class dangers to their rule. It's not the same as more stable forms of capitalist dictatorship, nor of Bonapartism -- although a given state could pass from one to the other. So the point of the analytical exercise is to see what the ruling class is doing and why -- or what those to whom it has temporarily handed power are doing,and why and on that basis to develop a working class response. Use MIA's search function, select Trotsky from the drop-down list, and type bonapartism and then fascism On Mon, Mar 10, 2014 at 7:18 PM, Jeff <meis...@xs4all.nl> wrote: > ====================================================================== > Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > ====================================================================== > > > At 18:45 10-03-14 -0400, Andrew Pollack wrote:> > > > >This round was completely unnecessary. Marv made a simple mistake > > I don't think Marv made a mistake. I think he posed the wrong question: > whether we "defend" the government, whatever that exactly means. The > question is whether we support their self-determination, self rule, or as > Clay said "territorial integrity." Of course when we talk about the third > world and colonialism, Ukraine doesn't normally spring to mind. But in the > current situation (as well as during some history) that is exactly the > right analogy. It's disingenuous for Marv to shift the discussion of our > attitude to the government, as he knows damn well none of us defend > capitalist governments. That doesn't prevent us from defending the > interests of people living under those governments, including resistance to > foreign invasion. I absolutely agree with Clay's statement, below. > - Jeff > > >Ukraine territorial integrity is worth defending. Russian imperialist > >militarism and annexation is worth opposing. The Ukrainian masses who made > >this overthrow possible are my dog in this fight. > > > >If all you see in Ukraine is inter-imperialist rivalry, then you are blind > >to the class struggle and how the working class builds its power and > >consciousness through participation in the mass struggle. > > > > > -- he > >focused on our denunciation of Russia and extrapolated that incorrectly > >into our supposed support for the government of Ukrainian oligarch set B > >(following set A). There was no need for Louis to Democrat-bait him. > > > >Then Clay made his own false extrapolation. Clay, it's PRECISELY by > >refusing to support either imperialism that we can best promote the class > >struggle by workers on each side, and therefore in mutual support of each > >other. > > > > > >On Mon, Mar 10, 2014 at 5:10 PM, Louis Proyect <l...@panix.com> wrote: > > > >> ====================================================================== > >> Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > >> ====================================================================== > >> > >> > >> On 3/10/14 3:18 PM, Marv Gandall wrote: > >> > >>> Yet the clear impression conveyed by Clay, Andy, yourself and a few > >>> others is that this government is somehow worth defending against the > >>> greater evil represented by Putin and the Russians. > >>> > >> > >> I suppose someone who has made the case for voting Democrat every 4 > >> years would be tempted to ascribe this motive to me. It is what Freud > >> called projection. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ________________________________________________ > >> Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu > >> Set your options at: > http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/ > >> marxism/acpollack2%40gmail.com > >> > >________________________________________________ > >Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu > >Set your options at: > > http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/meisner%40xs4al > l.nl > > > > ________________________________________________ > Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu > Set your options at: > http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/acpollack2%40gmail.com > > ________________________________________________ Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/lacenaire%40comcast.net ________________________________________________ Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/farmelantj%40juno.com ____________________________________________________________ How to Stay Asleep All Night Try this one weird trick to put your sleep troubles to rest. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/531e57a491e9c57a448e4st01vuc ________________________________________________ Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
