I agree with Marv --- despite the arguments made about whether Marx and Engels believed in the "final crisis" -- and economic breakdown -- the view from all Marxists up through WW I (and even the Great Depression?) was that capitalism was on its death bed ---
THEN, the "recovery" of the capitalist world after WW II --- the creation of an affluent middle class of workers --- first in the US but then in many European countries (and also in Japan) --- put off the economic breakdown of capitalism. Those who decided that capitalism would be nibbled to death from the periphery (China being a good example but then hopefully countries would follow Cuba in Latin America and China in Asia (Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia) --- etc. etc. --- abandoned the idea of revolution in the center and looked to the periphery That wing of international Marxism felt that the long run problem was summed up by the joke that the US was wondering if there could be "Capitalism in One Country". ANd I admit that in the 1960s and 70s I became enamoured of that hope. Now as climate change creates tremendous stresses in almost every country in the world, Rosa Luxembourg's sad choice: SOcialism or Barbarism --- seems on the table --- with a kind of militaristic authoritarian barbarism the default policy as the effects of global warming create crises all over the world. Is there something better in our kids' and grandkids' futures? Well --- we gotta hope --- and therefore we gotta struggle for "little" things --- like resisting Trump's fascism even though US capitalist "democracy" hasn't got much to recommend itself ... On Tue, Nov 18, 2025 at 2:12 PM Marv Gandall via groups.io <marvgand2= [email protected]> wrote: > On Mon, Nov 17, 2025 at 04:57 PM, Charles wrote: > > Marv Gandall wrote: > > They did not expect the system would survive to the present day. > > > That's what you say...without evidence...European capitalism from its > first city victories in Italy and Holland took centuries just to get to the > first national revolution in England in 1640. > > > It’s self-evident that millions of workers, peasants, and intellectuals > would not have mobilized unless they believed that capitalism had outlived > its historic role and that its global overthrow was now on the agenda. They > were led to so believe by revolutionary Marxists who could not foresee (as > we would not have) that capitalism would unexpectedly recover from its > crises and expand over the following decades, causing their socialist > revolutions to capitulate. I’ve seen nothing to suggest they anticipated > otherwise, and find it hard to believe that the Bolsheviks and the other > Comintern parties would have unilaterally seized power if they were other > than convinced that capitalism was in its “death agonies” and “ripe” for > revolution, and that it was not going to “take centuries” to reach that > goal. > _._,_._,_ > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Groups.io Links: You receive all messages sent to this group. View/Reply Online (#39334): https://groups.io/g/marxmail/message/39334 Mute This Topic: https://groups.io/mt/116301050/21656 -=-=- POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. #4 Do not exceed five posts a day. -=-=- Group Owner: [email protected] Unsubscribe: https://groups.io/g/marxmail/leave/13617172/21656/1316126222/xyzzy [[email protected]] -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
