I remain a tad perplexed. There appears to have been much misunderstanding and I can’t tell if it is how I write or what is projected upon it. I’ll continue my quest for clarity though.
What you appear to think about ‘enemy’, while commonly found, misses my intended observations. I’ll try once more, quickly along with some questions to clarify. You appear to group those ‘raised, indoctrinated and poisoned mentally’ into theological sets. While appropriate for a discussion in a conference about atheism, to me, this is a far too narrow view. At least, this is what I take from your discussion about ‘dehumanization’. I’ll guess you have some knowledge in the area so am open to learning. The same when you say no rules of engagement on one side and bent ones on the other. What you see is not clear to me at all. IF you wish me to know, please expand. If not, that is fine too. One last clarification, exactly who do you mean by ‘premier enemy’? As to being insulted about your aversion to original sin, why would I be? I only made the suggested association because I saw your earlier post as having similar (not identical) foundations. Quickly about 4 horsemen: Yes, humanity has always experienced cataclysmic events. Until the last few decades, ‘we’ did not have the power to with a hand full of nukes destroy all human life though. This is entirely new. As to plague, while humanity has experienced this in the past, the current delivery systems are far superior. And, overpopulation, while experienced in micro groupings, now is a global issue with no ‘easy’ end in sight. The same is true for food and water… shortages have always existed in set areas. This may quickly change due to our global connectedness along with many of ‘us’ relying upon fossil fuels. “History's military units have for the most part been made up of felons, idiots, geniuses, and anyone else that can make an "X" mark.” – CB Uhh, yes…but what I meant to convey was that recently, in the US military, the standards have been on a continuing decline (lowering of IQ and test scores, the ‘new’ acceptance of felons, etc.) and for the obvious reasons. And, when you talk about ‘guaranteed money for tuition’, I hope you mean it as enlightened irony since many who try to use this ‘guarantee’ find it no longer applicable. And, I find this a sad state of affairs since many thought this as a ‘way out/up’ and signed up albeit in a mercenary way, for this benefit. “It is far too prevalent in society to make them into the dehumanized monsters you mentioned before...automatons marching, marching.” – CB I wonder what I said to give the impression of ‘dehumanized monsters’. Certainly I didn’t use those words nor did I mean to imply them. “I am aware of the past and present military as a business and those fundamentals of business apply to it and most other militia through time.” – CB Perhaps my intended observation of the US economy being consciously based upon the military was overlooked. I wasn’t talking about it as a separate business. Yes, of course, other places and times have had similar arrangements. However, when you say “ It has been a tool for economic tweaking.”, I fear you master understatement. “…Many of those bases were closed for logistics efficiency only.” – CB Yes, again, you support the fact that the main US business has been the military. Many of the bases were kept open to keep congressmen in office, as pork for the electorate. “Do you honestly believe the military has no other function but destruction around the world?” – CB Again, I am surprised by your question, not remembering saying let alone implying this. Does your ‘passion’ include using debate techniques (red herrings) on occasion? “I have heard many stories of good things… even so, that does not make my perspective the right or only one.” – CB I’m not sure which perspective you mean here. “…Again, post graduate education came up because you dehumanized and intimated that anyone that joined the military would have to be an uneducated idiot, as many do think from the 60's era and today.” – CB Perhaps my use of the term ‘idiot’ [“We have to reduce our standards for the military to include both felons and idiots today.”] was a poor word choice. Earlier here I have attempted to clarify that I meant the lowering of standards over the last few years of what is acceptable for new recruits. This included accepting those who are not as bright as was previously required. That was all. The rest is but stereotype. “As I can't read your mind, I dont' totally know what you personally think.” – CB Noted and appreciated. And, when you talk about walking down the street in Marin County, I have walked there and know what you mean. I’ve been on the receiving end of similar stares, from being one of the first long hairs and bearded men in a century to live in the deep south to walking around in my military school uniform. Oh, for total disclosure, I did have a prejudice about military members when it came to ‘Nam. My view was that since it clearly was an immoral war (later supported by those who ran it), those conscripted should be brave enough, (yes, and bright enough) to escape to Canada, go through the CO process, say they are gay on the application or even just say they wet their beds. Nice chat…IF I drank coffee, I’d love to sit and chat over some. On Oct 29, 8:41 am, CrossBow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > to cover all that is in our mail would be a feat! so, time constrains me to > pick a few that I can and rely on you to help me chew the rest over later, > Yes? > > As for the "Enemy" - the group I identify is the "premier ememy" since they > are the most obvious military threat, has already dehumanized itself. > Raised, indoctrinated, and poisoned mentally. Some would say the same > of american soldiers who are fundamentalist christian.... Difficult to > reverse that training. This is a fight with no rules of engagement on one > side and bent ones on the other. I cannot pretend to excuse anything done in > war, only observe and question. > > "Original sin" is so repugnant an idea to me, I cannot believe a baby > carries anything into the world but its own potential, good or bad, with no > attached psyche-baggage. That is not an insult to you or your own, but my > own deep feeling... > So you do appreciate allegory and use it well enough...hm. As for the 4 > horsemen - Humanity has always been on the brink of distruction in many > ways: plague, asteroid strike, religious wars, alien invasions ( ode to > Orson Welles). The four horsemen are always floating in your peripheral > vision somewhere. Wonder if it is true 99% of species have went extinct? we > are a spec on the behind of the universe. Sorry I didn't quite catch your > original intent - I have quite a few communication issues. > > *<<<<There was a movement here in the states to do that for a while and as > I understand it, few have closed on a global scale, and we are > currently building our largest one ever, in Iraq. Again, I'm not > saying better/worse, merely what is. In general, you help me to make > my point(s). Here you support how our zenith is long gone. We have to > reduce our standards for the military to include both felons and > idiots today.>>>>* > > History's military units have for the most part been made up of felons, > idiots, geniuses, and anyone else that can make an "X" mark. One thing that > might set some apart is the guaranteed money for tuition that our american > military provides so those idiots you mention can do something else besides > carry a gun. That is why I mentioned some of them that have degrees etc. > It is far too prevalent in society to make them into the dehumanized > monsters you mentioned before...automatons marching, marching. Some are > just too damn poor to do anything else or go there to escape. History's > mobius strip. > > *<<<A sign of things to come I fear. And, when you mention > as a sort of an aside that the military is a business, I'll assume you > are not entirely versed on the history of how, long ago, the US > decided to base it's economy upon the military, long before you or I > were born. So, in that sense the money goes into local economies. > However, on a much larger scale, it is an industry which produces > nothing. All of it's resources are destroyed. This analysis has been > made by those far wiser than I. Do a comparison between a business > that 'creates' bombs and planes that become destroyed and almost any > other. There is a net loss for all of the funds used up. And your last > comment shows the truth of the matter, "…Not all countries boo them…". > In the spirit of universality, do 'we' boo those military personnel > marching down our streets? Oh, wait, we won't allow that…never mind.>>>* > > I am aware of the past and present military as a business and those > fundamentals of business apply to it and most other militia through time. It > has been a tool for economic tweaking. Agreed on the non-productivity of > resources, but that is not 100%. Many of those bases were closed for > logistics efficiency only. Even though comprised totally of volunteers > today, it will never be ran as a volunteer organization because most > volunteers are not contracted to shed blood. It is a death contract that is > hard to get out of as I am sure you know. Do you honestly believe the > military has no other function but destruction around the world? I have > heard many stories of good things..So, I lived on an AFB for seven years and > that makes many of those people very human to me. I still live with one who > has brought back many pine boxes in the hold of a C-5, even so, that does > not make my perspective the right or only one. By the way, what you see > above the ground at a military base gives no true indication of true size of > the installation itself. Much goes underground now. > > *<<<<ean deluded by "W" not by the very fact of enlistment itself. I > * > *know several soldiers with master's degrees, that do not feel deluded > by the idea of what the military represents. Understanding violence is > not the same as being attracted to it. If you are refering to me as a > violence monger, you would be incorrect. I am however very passionate > by nature. Your reference to heroes probably includes the brilliant > * > *work of Ghandi, No? We can agree there." – OB>>* > > *<<<Again I just don't get what is meant. Why did master's degrees come > up? I was talking about ignorance. I know many with such degrees and > more that remain quite ignorant overall. And, enlistment? Do you mean > some people decide to join the military these days? Of course. The > draft is long over, sadly. And as to what anything 'represents', we > could start numerous topics on this alone, no? : - )>>>> > * > Again, post graduate education came up because you dehumanized and intimated > that anyone that joined the military would have to be an uneducated idiot, > as many do think from the 60's era and today. As I can't read your mind, I > dont' totally know what you personally think.. There is a prevalent > ignorance that pervades civilian society that expects military personnell to > be stupid gun fodder. It may not be visible to you, but having lived on > both sides, trust me that it exists. Walk down the street in Marin County > with a soldier in full dress and feel the distaste wash over you, the > automatic judgement. Silent Boos. > > [?] surfing caffeine - if I forgot something..I am sure you will let me > know.. > > On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 5:10 PM, ornamentalmind <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: > > > > > > > "… as for being bombastic and prone to hyperbole...well, this is a > > public forum and we all have personalities and I > > will not apologize for mine as repugnant as it may get." – CB > > > Ditto!!! > > > "…it is extremely lovably niaive to imagine we can know all the cards > > and players in this international playground of bullies." – CB > > > I wonder who imagined that? Shall I "choke and swallow" now, or > > later? : - ) > > > "I have been unable to join the conspiracy that "W" caused the 9/11 > > strike by action > > or inaction,…" – CB > > > That is fine. I don't know how much you have studied the issue nor > > what you take to the arena. And, of course, the terms 'join' and > > 'conspiracy' in this context when used by most people are at least > > subtle forms of and/or loosely veiled forms of derision. For now, I'll > > retain a suspension of judgment. > > > "… and if/when we cause agression from other countries of this > > retaliatory nature, that does not mean they are right for attacking in > > this manner." – CB > > > Until now, I hadn't seen the notion of right/wrong brought into the > > discussion. In the current context, I would expect nothing else and, > > empathetically might feel desperate enough to reply in kind. > > > "This is not a cadre of bio-altruist we are talking about here, but > > murderous fundamentally bent cruelty experiments masquerading as > > humans." – CB > > > Ahhh, yes, the dehumanization of the 'enemy'. A necessary tactic for > > warfare. And, one of the first tools of most military and social > > programmers. Again, more of an observation than much of a forceful > > criticism. I have read Qutb and get a sense of how his views have > > influenced many of 'them'. > > > "…I have to bring up the perspective that we have to learn the same > > lessons over and over thoughout history." – CB > > > Well, have to or not, 'we' do appear to go in cycles. Again, the word > > of the day is ignorance as I see it. This of course can apply to each > > new generation that does not share the same memories and lessons and > > must learn on their own. So, as much as my personal exasperation oozed > > through my reflections upon the past and present, I do know the way of > > things in general. > > > "…Why do you think that is? I am not saying we havent improved from > > the sacrifice of children and slavery of > > ancient Rome, but really, we deal with the same human foibles, time > > removed." – OB > > > I've addressed the 'why', in general and ask, sort of tongue in cheek, > > sort of not…do you equate 'human foibles' to original sin as a > > concept? Additionally, you are NOT saying we haven't improved, a > > double negative, so I'll guess that you are at least implying that we > > HAVE improved. This too is a common meme that I don't subscribe to. > > > "Aren't you giving Bush a bit too much credit here?" – OB > > > Yes, it (Bush) was a reference to Rove, Wolfowitz and the rest of the > > neocons that formed the PNAC among others groupings and 'think tanks'. > > I'll even include Leo Strauss here to some extent since he taught many > > in this clique. > > > ".. be specific with me when you have time about all that has been > > ruined? At least he never overturned > > Roe vs. Wade...." – OB > > > I'd love to. For many years, almost daily revelations were being > > rushed by the media, or not. The onslaught was so mind numbing as to > > help many people think they were alone in seeing that he wore no > > clothes and was actively fulfilling the vision of the advisers for > > Bush the Elder. So, a well researched review might be valuable now. > > I've heard some others present 'short' lists already. > > > As an aside, see the movie 'W'. > > > "Having no belief in the 4 horsemen, I have no fear of them either, > > just an overriding bio-altruistic fire to make > > ... > > read more » > > 981.png > < 1KViewDownload- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Memphis Freethought Alliance" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/memphisfreethoughtalliance?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
