“… as for being bombastic and prone to hyperbole...well, this is a public forum and we all have personalities and I will not apologize for mine as repugnant as it may get.” – CB
Ditto!!! “…it is extremely lovably niaive to imagine we can know all the cards and players in this international playground of bullies.” – CB I wonder who imagined that? Shall I “choke and swallow” now, or later? : - ) “I have been unable to join the conspiracy that "W" caused the 9/11 strike by action or inaction,…” – CB That is fine. I don’t know how much you have studied the issue nor what you take to the arena. And, of course, the terms ‘join’ and ‘conspiracy’ in this context when used by most people are at least subtle forms of and/or loosely veiled forms of derision. For now, I’ll retain a suspension of judgment. “… and if/when we cause agression from other countries of this retaliatory nature, that does not mean they are right for attacking in this manner.” – CB Until now, I hadn’t seen the notion of right/wrong brought into the discussion. In the current context, I would expect nothing else and, empathetically might feel desperate enough to reply in kind. “This is not a cadre of bio-altruist we are talking about here, but murderous fundamentally bent cruelty experiments masquerading as humans.” – CB Ahhh, yes, the dehumanization of the ‘enemy’. A necessary tactic for warfare. And, one of the first tools of most military and social programmers. Again, more of an observation than much of a forceful criticism. I have read Qutb and get a sense of how his views have influenced many of ‘them’. “…I have to bring up the perspective that we have to learn the same lessons over and over thoughout history.” – CB Well, have to or not, ‘we’ do appear to go in cycles. Again, the word of the day is ignorance as I see it. This of course can apply to each new generation that does not share the same memories and lessons and must learn on their own. So, as much as my personal exasperation oozed through my reflections upon the past and present, I do know the way of things in general. “…Why do you think that is? I am not saying we havent improved from the sacrifice of children and slavery of ancient Rome, but really, we deal with the same human foibles, time removed.” – OB I’ve addressed the ‘why’, in general and ask, sort of tongue in cheek, sort of not…do you equate ‘human foibles’ to original sin as a concept? Additionally, you are NOT saying we haven’t improved, a double negative, so I’ll guess that you are at least implying that we HAVE improved. This too is a common meme that I don’t subscribe to. “Aren't you giving Bush a bit too much credit here?” – OB Yes, it (Bush) was a reference to Rove, Wolfowitz and the rest of the neocons that formed the PNAC among others groupings and ‘think tanks’. I’ll even include Leo Strauss here to some extent since he taught many in this clique. “.. be specific with me when you have time about all that has been ruined? At least he never overturned Roe vs. Wade....” – OB I’d love to. For many years, almost daily revelations were being rushed by the media, or not. The onslaught was so mind numbing as to help many people think they were alone in seeing that he wore no clothes and was actively fulfilling the vision of the advisers for Bush the Elder. So, a well researched review might be valuable now. I’ve heard some others present ‘short’ lists already. As an aside, see the movie ‘W’. “Having no belief in the 4 horsemen, I have no fear of them either, just an overriding bio-altruistic fire to make things better right here, right now - for you, for me.” OB Perhaps my ignorance about my own reference makes your reaction opaque to me. While I didn’t mean it in a theological sense, but more of an allegorical one, I do see humanity at a potential brink of destruction. The original four were: Conquest, War, Famine and Death. I would update it a little and include issues like nuclear proliferation and the associated risk of not only ‘suitcase bombs’, but full bore Thermal Nuclear War, shall we play a game? Also, famine is real and, as overpopulation continues, will increase greatly. This is also exasperated by the passing of peak oil and our foolish continuing reliance on a global garden. When it comes to pestilence, AIDs will do nicely even though many others have arisen recently. And when it comes to the design of a distribution method, our current transportation system couldn’t be much more efficient. I won’t belabor the point since I feel certain I’ve already made it. And, your apparent wish to be in the here and now is something we can share. “We do have many bases, but so many have closed or downgraded. Our military has been stripped of many bases, maybe for the better as logistics and economy goes, as it is a business of sorts.” – OB There was a movement here in the states to do that for a while and as I understand it, few have closed on a global scale, and we are currently building our largest one ever, in Iraq. Again, I’m not saying better/worse, merely what is. In general, you help me to make my point(s). Here you support how our zenith is long gone. We have to reduce our standards for the military to include both felons and idiots today. A sign of things to come I fear. And, when you mention as a sort of an aside that the military is a business, I’ll assume you are not entirely versed on the history of how, long ago, the US decided to base it’s economy upon the military, long before you or I were born. So, in that sense the money goes into local economies. However, on a much larger scale, it is an industry which produces nothing. All of it’s resources are destroyed. This analysis has been made by those far wiser than I. Do a comparison between a business that ‘creates’ bombs and planes that become destroyed and almost any other. There is a net loss for all of the funds used up. And your last comment shows the truth of the matter, “…Not all countries boo them…”. In the spirit of universality, do ‘we’ boo those military personnel marching down our streets? Oh, wait, we won’t allow that…never mind. “I mean deluded by "W" not by the very fact of enlistment itself. I know several soldiers with master's degrees, that do not feel deluded by the idea of what the military represents. Understanding violence is not the same as being attracted to it. If you are refering to me as a violence monger, you would be incorrect. I am however very passionate by nature. Your reference to heroes probably includes the brilliant work of Ghandi, No? We can agree there.” – OB Again I just don’t get what is meant. Why did master’s degrees come up? I was talking about ignorance. I know many with such degrees and more that remain quite ignorant overall. And, enlistment? Do you mean some people decide to join the military these days? Of course. The draft is long over, sadly. And as to what anything ‘represents’, we could start numerous topics on this alone, no? : - ) I don’t know if you are a violence monger, an enabler, an ideologue or peace activist. I’ll take you at your word for now. I’ll also be forewarned about your passionate nature too!!! And, overall I did appreciate the brilliance of Ghandi. RE: Darwin You consider yourself a Darwinist I take it? If so, as I understand it, his method and theory has gone through numerous iterations over time, is this the case? Oh, in a way it (Charles) is well know here. There are the obligatory footed fish found on numerous car behinds. Mine has a fat fish with “Buddha” written in it. Iconoclasm has it’s place. PS Perhaps I learned tenacity as a principle during decades of teaching Tai Chi. : - ) The beat goes on.... On Oct 28, 1:29 pm, CrossBow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Your conclusions are appreciated as is the tenacity of your response, > however do not put imagined words into my mouth expecting me to choke and > swallow them:) It is easy to assume I do, but I have very little hidden > meaning in my writing and less harmful intent than you might imagine. > > Idealistic and Appealing outlook - Allways. Everyone has an agenda and > vested interests are the only coin beside the sword, eh? I am happy to join > the ranks of Idealism and as for being bombastic and prone to > hyperbole...well, this is a public forum and we all have personalities and I > will not apologize for mine as repugnant as it may get. > > *<<<<I am not so naïve as to think that the US military industrial complex > does not hold great sway over how resources are used here and > elsewhere, however the current result of the Madness of King George is > clear to all now. Add to this that Clinton had DAILY meetings on > terrorism while 'W' had only ONE IN FOUR MONTHS!!!! . . . well, you > get my drift. I clearly believe that since we knew who was doing the > attacking and why and where they were - we even had airport pictures > that the reason that 'things are different since 9/11' would never > have been an issue with a different administration.>>>* > > As for the above - it is extremely lovably niaive to imagine we can know all > the cards and players in this international playground of bullies. I have > been unable to join the conspiracy that "W" caused the 9/11 strike by action > or inaction, and if/when we cause agression from other countries of this > retaliatory nature, that does not mean they are right for attacking in this > manner. This is not a cadre of bio-altruist we are talking about here, but > murderous fundamentally bent cruelty experiments masquerading as humans. > > *<<<As an admitted child of the 60s (and before), it appears that the > lessons of the futility of imposing might (and 'democracy') upon > others seem to be fading fast. So, yes, in an ideal world since we are > using hypotheticals here, our intel and influence would have rendered > most if not all military adventuring of the last 8 years null and > void.>>>>* > ** > Nicely put, but I have to bring up the perspective that we have to learn the > same lessons over and over thoughout history. The lauded 60's era of peace > is but a repeat of centuries of same such. Why do you think that is? I am > not saying we havent improved from the sacrifice of children and slavery of > ancient Rome, but really, we deal with the same human foibles, time removed. > > *<<<'Moving On' we will have little choice. The US has long passed it's > zenith and 'W' has wiped out most advancements and means gained from > the last 80 years.>>>>* > > Aren't you giving Bush a bit too much credit here? be specific with me when > you have time about all that has been ruined? At least he never overturned > Roe vs. Wade.... > > *<<< Not only this, the four horseman are at our door > and, even though I don't walk around with a sign 'The End Is Near!', > in fact, a clear case can be made that it is.>>>* > > Having no belief in the 4 horsemen, I have no fear of them either, just an > overriding bio-altruistic fire to make things better right here, right now - > for you, for me. > > * <<<<When you ask about "possession of weapons a bait to attack from any > kind of outside force?", I would say not necessarily. However, the > history of how the US has dealt with other countries easily has been > the attraction for such attacks. Seldom is it mentioned about how many > countries 'we' have military bases firmly and permanently planted > therein.>>>* > > We do have many bases, but so many have closed or downgraded. Our > military has been stripped of many bases, maybe for the better as logistics > and economy goes, as it is a business of sorts. Stop loss has not prevented > the best talent from retiring or moving on, and much money goes to machinery > and supply, not into the pockets of GI's. But, it also goes into local > economies from what I hear from a soldier or two. Not all countries boo > them as they walk by either. > > *<<<Regarding "…living breathing people volunteering to be deluded…"; I > think you are getting closer to the mark here. As has been the case > 'forever', ignorance causes suffering. >>>* > > I mean deluded by "W" not by the very fact of enlistment itself. I know > several soldiers with master's degrees, that do not feel deluded by the idea > of what the military represents. > > Understanding violence is not the same as being attracted to it. If you are > refering to me as a violence monger, you would be incorrect. I am however > very passionate by nature. Your reference to heroes probably includes the > brilliant work of Ghandi, No? We can agree there. > > *<<<but as many times as I've marched for peace, I've never heard Darwin > mentioned. Maybe it is a West Coast thing? : - )>>>* > > You didnt hear him mentioned, but to me his method was there in the very > nature of your physical form:) After living in Northbay, I would have to > say it is a prominent West Coast thing, but by no means born or owned by > it:) > > Thanks for the interaction! ditto:) > > On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 2:23 PM, ornamentalmind <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: > > > > > > > WE is inclusive of countries responsible for global survival by nature > > of position of influence -money, location, etc. Of course ideally, > > carefully wrought vice-grip sanctions, or smart military maneuverings, > > should be priority, not horsehockey as practiced by the Bush Brigade, > > who I think all conclude has demostrated idiocy. Do not presume to pin > > a "W" on my shirt. I will also caveat that some ends never justify the > > means. The "We" I project includes all countries capable of compromise > > for greater good. > > So, if "W" was not in office do you suggest all military missions in > > the last 8 years would be extremely different? Very few would be > > deemed necessary or helpfull? Ultimately what do you suggest we do > > moving onward? Disband the military? give them taser guns? is > > possession of weapons a bait to attack from any kind of outside force? > > What do you propose other than this cancerous canker? or, can you say, > > living breathing people volunteering to be deluded by the Bush > > Administration or any other President working in conjunction with a > > bunch of geeks in Congress? > > Aren't analogies tools of examining similar - but not necessarily > > completely related items...not a statement of truth, but a path to > > some form of it? Poor analogies, how I do love to examine the world > > through them...and anyone's truth will only be built of sets of > > probabilities. Absolutism is not my bag. > > Just to clarify, the "peace-niks" I refer to are people I've met who > > are oblivious to all counter-arguement against peaceful means to an > > end, and consider darwinian combat a thing of the past.... > > > "I will also caveat that some ends never justify the means." – cross > > > So, I take it that the following is a justified means to you? … or at > > least a de facto manifestation of 'Might Makes Right'? > > > "…I know this little note is a spoof, but in a global society how can > > we Not police the planet?…" – cross > > > Further, as idealistic and appealing as your collective of 'countries > > capable of compromise for greater good' may appear, upon further > > analysis, in almost all such contracts the reality is manifested by > > the imposition of vested interests by using force of one type or > > another upon the rest, no? > > > Even though I accept your rather bombastic and filled with hyperbole > > questions as being just that, I'll do my best to respond. > > > I think that IF Bush (and his cadres) were not in charge, the role of > > the US military would have been quite different over the last 8 years. > > I am not so naïve as to think that the US military industrial complex > > does not hold great sway over how resources are used here and > > elsewhere, however the current result of the Madness of King George is > > clear to all now. Add to this that Clinton had DAILY meetings on > > terrorism while 'W' had only ONE IN FOUR MONTHS!!!! . . . well, you > > get my drift. I clearly believe that since we knew who was doing the > > attacking and why and where they were - we even had airport pictures > > that the reason that 'things are different since 9/11' would never > > have been an issue with a different administration. > > > As an admitted child of the 60s (and before), it appears that the > > lessons of the futility of imposing might (and 'democracy') upon > > others seem to be fading fast. So, yes, in an ideal world since we are > > using hypotheticals here, our intel and influence would have rendered > > most if not all military adventuring of the last 8 years null and > > void. > > > 'Moving On' we will have little choice. The US has long passed it's > > zenith and 'W' has wiped out most advancements and means gained from > > the last 80 years. Not only this, the four horseman are at our door > > and, even though I don't walk around with a sign 'The End Is Near!', > > in fact, a clear case can be made that it is. Not only for the US > > which already is owned by the Chinese, OPEC and Canadians, among > > others, but for humanity as a whole. > > When you ask about "possession of weapons a bait to attack from any > > kind of outside force?", I would say not necessarily. However, the > > history of how the US has dealt with other countries easily has been > > the attraction for such attacks. Seldom is it mentioned about how many > > countries 'we' have military bases firmly and permanently planted > > therein. > > > Regarding "…living breathing people volunteering to be deluded…"; I > > think you are getting closer to the mark here. As has been the case > > 'forever', ignorance causes suffering. > > > Yes, I know how analogies are used in an attempt to know what is. It > > is one of 3 commonly used methods. This said, when your feign > > rejecting > > ... > > read more »- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Memphis Freethought Alliance" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/memphisfreethoughtalliance?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
