Crossbow,
While I enjoyed your reply, I think you misread mine. I am not against the military. I just want to see it reporting to a President who reports to the people. I would like see the public informed and also able to recall a president who is definately incompetant and probably criminal. I would also like to se the old GI benefits restored where military service gets you a college education. I would like to see real military service, not Bush's national guard stint, be a prequisite to be commander in chief. I would like to see national service of some sort, either military or peace corps or something else required for full citizenship. Enough service would also get you a free college education. There are many more changes that I would like to see. I am not for killing but I accept the necessity for now and for any forseable future of a strong military. But it must, must, must, must be accountable to the people. The people and or the friends and family should also be in the army, so that war hurts all of us, not just the few who have enlisted. And a tax cut durring a war so that we don't feel it. That is a treasonous act. On Dec 25, 1:53 pm, CrossBow <[email protected]> wrote: > "the average joe is quickly turned into a killer through military > training" As well as are martial artists and police, whose training is > much deeper at times than footsoldiers...and I believe those are whom you > are concentrating on - right? Interesting that you choose only the > perspective of "killing machine" as not all troops are trained to be foot > soldiers, but a vast majority of today's standing armies are technical and > removed to supply line and command. Most of the boot camp training and > follow-up techinical schools are focused on building teamwork, and > preventive/protective technology instead of end result killing. Of course > units are taught to kill in unison, while covering thier asses, to survive > long enough to achieve objectives. Where was a standing military > invented? WHY? originally? to protect and if you are Amerind, it was war for > resources to survive. Even Chimps do this today over territory. > MOST primitive tribes either trade or fight, or both on occasion. Soldiers > are never instant inhuman killing machines. When was the last time you > really talked to a lifer in the military? or a bootcamp graduate? Many > humans can kill and we all can be cruel! I am not just blasting you for > questioning, or divulging your perspective,, I am protesting a current of > codswallop fueled by this Burning Bush administration that has made a > mockery of many. Along with the spining hate mongers of TV!... > > read more » > > Too many people believe in HollyWoods version of the Arnold Swartzenegger > commando. All movies with military representations follow a stupid > off-base generic, very far removed, twisted glorification of the real > thing. Though I agree with much that you are saying about the regimes that > control our soldiers...some of your information is very unrepresentative of > the real military human on a day to day basis. This administration has done > more damage to the image of soldiery than the Vietnam War because the > current altercation has potential to never end. You are accusing the many, > and degrading the few in the manner you present them. I am not panglossian > in my views...I've just lived with military personnel long enough to know. > GOD DAMN Dick Cheney and his ilk for dragging the image of the soldier > through the mud until all you see is a faceless killing machine! Damn this > regime again for creating the same version of the "baby killer" that Vietnam > did. Spit on all of humanity for not staying aware enough after WWII and > hiding our heads in the sand long enough to have so little influence on the > political machine. > > What is the solution? Disband the military because they are all baby killers > aching for an excuse to kill children? Sanction misbehaving countries to > death? which is worse? What to do when sanctions don't work? Nah, don't make > up stories of WMD's, keep the sanctions going...and going and going. What > is that perfect solution? The UN maneuverings? ok. What is your alternative > to a standing army? Should be become isolated and beg off globalization and > cooperation with other countries? How long will interests be protected that > way in even the most harmless of instances? Reduce ourselves to > a non-influence? would that help? Live in small insular communities like > the more harmless "savage"? Avoid global visits to other countries, stop > cooperating scientifically? Do you realize how much of this effort is still > protected by military prescence and sanctions that depend on it to stand > firm? > > what philospher portrays a humanity free from darwinian combat? Does it > depend on population? The savages you speak of are in small groups using > smaller resources.... Does population necessitate Civilization? How is > savagery controlled? usually by standing arms and not by > prayer...obviously. As creatively destructive as humanity is, It may be that > we will endlessly find something to gripe and fight over...it only takes two > to disagree. According to smarter people than me, we are all savages that > happen to cooperate if given reason to do so...ie survival. If we can get > past this bully on the edge of the world philosophy what will we replace it > with? what can we replace it with? Love? there will always be a > Machiavellian to screw things up. Too bad we can't genetically engineer > ourselves to be complacent and docile and lay around in a hedonistic > malaise. Would our fire for survival go out? > > many of you will take my note as pro-military. It is not. It is pro what > the hell do you want to do instead of. I have not heard a good answer yet. > Socrates asked the same question centuries ago. When are we going to love > each other enough to survive on it alone? Self-love first? Who wants a > socratic Love-in on this savage planet? > On Thu, Dec 25, 2008 at 9:00 AM, Isparklaria <[email protected]>wrote: > > > > > > > I agree that there is killing among savages. However, there are some > > significant differences among savages and civilized people. One of > > these is that the average joe in the civilized world is, as you noted, > > quickly turned into a killer through military training. The > > individual's conscience is perverted to commit murder to fight against > > communism, capitalism, infidels, Muslims or whatever. Almost always > > the leaders are stirring up the masses to fight for such a cause while > > the leaders are benefiting personally by gaining power and money. With > > their citizen's (subjects really even in democracies) minds > > overwhelmed by emotions they are ready to commit horrible crimes > > including the murder of non-involved civilians, rape of women (perhaps > > even men), ineffective torture for no reason (torture almost never > > works to extract useful information). > > > In effect the people in the civilized world don't do enough of their > > own thinking and feeling. They are manipulated by certain types of > > religion and culture that do not exist among the primitives. Not that > > the primitives do enough of their own thinking and feeling either, > > it's just that no power elite can manipulate them to the same degree. > > The result is that they are far more democratic in their approach to > > decisions, because even though they don't vote they all have close to > > equal influence. No elite group stands to benefit from endless wars, > > which is the story of civilization, thus far. On the other hand I do > > not think that that going back to a primitive culture is the way. > > Instead, "WE THE PEOPLE" must take control of our nation and must help > > "WE THE PEOPLE" in other democracies to take control. It is our > > nation, we own all of the federal land, water, airwaves etc. The > > military is ours as well. If we do not take our nation back soon, we > > will go the way that every other Empire has in the past. > > > We are currently a host for international corporations that act > > patriotic, but don't give a damn about us. We have let them take > > control because we value owning stuff over liberty so we work our > > butt's off to have huge houses and two or three suvs. If we only spent > > five hours a week holding our leaders in check; they are supposed to > > be our servents! Instead we have to our army to kill in order to > > please our corporate masters. We kill in the name of freedom, while > > only a marginalized few stand up to the tyranny at home. Many are > > happy to have their mail read and their phones tapped. Instead we > > should be listening into our leaders to prevent them from selling us > > out. THen there would be less cruelity in this world, less but still > > plenty. > > > On Dec 24, 9:33 pm, "Jason (Memphis)" <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > Civilized people are just more systematic about killing and train > > > professional assassins to do their bidding. If I recall correctly, > > > anthropologists who lived among the savages for years often did not > > > witness many acts of murder or violence but the villagers did report > > > murders over spouses, resources, etc. Many of the savages new someone > > > who was murdered. > > > > On Dec 24, 10:26 pm, Isparklaria <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > It's funny that although apes may kill apes from other groups, humans > > > > living in primitive societies do not automatically do so. Additionally > > > > violence and cruelity is far less commong among "savages" then among > > > > civilized men. > > > > > On Dec 24, 4:17 pm, "Jason (Memphis)" <[email protected]> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > This civilization experiment will be interesting. For a large part > > > > > of our history, we warred with other primate troops, that is, > > > > > strangers. I don't think that it was uncommon to do two things upon > > > > > see a strangers: 1) kill him or 2) hid from him. Now stranger in the > > > > > human primate don't feel the urge to kill other stranger and sometime > > > > > even off to buy them a beer. I've witnessed it. I think that is it > > > > > is amazing that we've become sp civilized as human primates so > > > > > quickly. Only in parts of Africa (occasionally in other parts of the > > > > > world) do some primate human troops exterminate members of other > > > > > tribes--and that is often only in war time. Plus, many humans only > > > > > want to kill other soldiers and actually don't like killing > > > > > civilians. I remember Amercians attacking Germany and the mass > > > > > extermination of German non-combat civil including children was > > > > > celebrated with delightful, bloody exuberance. > > > > > > On Dec 24, 4:16 pm, Morpheal <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > Jason (Memphis) wrote: > > > > > > > Here is an interesting article. It reminds me of the > > introduction of > > > > > > > "history of western philosophy" by bertrand russell when he talks > > > > > > > about the social fabric of law and order quickly collapsing and > > the > > > > > > > ensuing chaos including horror tales from failed Greek city > > states.- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Memphis Freethought Alliance" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/memphisfreethoughtalliance?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
