Re: [MBZ] Doing SVO Wrong

ernest breakfield Mon, 11 May 2009 11:50:16 -0700

hi Dave!

being here in Berkeley, we see plenty of both BioD and VO use; idon't see much of what i'd call "bickering" between people in bothcamps, with the exception of those who don't know what they're talkingabout. ;-)

lots of misinformed people think they can do WVO because they thinkit's cheap, but don't realize the cost of setting a vehicle up to do itproperly. (local scrapyards won't pay anything for a W123 diesel anymorebecause of the dearth of them that have been destroyed by doing VObadly.) even done properly, conversions seem to work best for peoplethat have longer commutes, where the vehicle has a better opportunity torun at full temp for an extended period.lots of people initially think making BioD must be better, but don'timmediately realize the issues related to dealing with Methanol and Lye(or K0H), the chore of moving the stuff through the process of makingit, and the issue of disposing properly of the glycerin byproduct.

i agree; neither is superior, as they both have their issues andchallenges. frankly, i count myself as fortunate that i have anexcellent commercial dispenser of BioD convenient located, and just payto not have to deal with any of it at all anymore.


   anyone want to buy a BioD Processor?   ;-)


cheers!
e

'85 300D (5 years/55K miles on BioD)


dave walton wrote:

That may indeed be the best decision for you, but I would caution
against basing the decision on the misinformation that has appeared in
this thread. This IS NOT a Biofuels list. The people with the most to
say on the subject here have the least amount of direct experience.
Truth be told, the amount of useful advice appearing on this list has
continued to decrease since Dr. Marshall Booth died. He was often
frustrated with the amount of background noise on this list, and there
was much less back then. I know this because I did my share of
creating it when I first joined and he politely called me to task for
doing so.

If you put the same energy you have seen displayed here by the
armchair quarterbacks dismissing biofuels into learning how to do it
properly - you will succeed. Unfortunately you will not find that
information here.

Within the biofuel hobby, you will find 2 camps that are continually
bickering: WVO and Biodiesel. I run cars on WVO and I make Biodiesel.
Neither method is clearly superior to the other in my mind.

-Dave Walton

On Mon, May 11, 2009 at 8:47 AM,  <drcscru...@aol.com> wrote:

I just want to thank you guys for talking me out of every spending the money to 
convert my diesel to WVO.? There are apparently problems that I was unaware, 
which would cause a non-mechanic type to hypotheticly kill my engine. There was 
just enough material to convince me.?

-----Original Message-----
From: Redghost <redgh...@comcast.net>
To: Mercedes Discussion List <mercedes@okiebenz.com>
Sent: Sun, 10 May 2009 4:32 pm
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Doing SVO Wrong

Maybe this is the way to deal with the issue?
?
http://kineticvehicles.com/?
?
clay?
?
On May 10, 2009, at 7:59 AM, Peter Frederick wrote:?
?

WVO contains several things that cause trouble as fuel:?
?
Protein (clogs filters, carbonizes, and produces varnish in the IP)?
?
Carbohydrates (clogs filters and carbonizes easily, abrasive)?
?
Phosphates (abrasive soots, can produce hard precipitates in the > fuel 
system).?
?
Properly made BioD removes all this stuff, leaving you with very > pure methyl esters of fatty acids 
(the phospholipids stay in the > aqueous phase). Lower viscosity (at above freezing temps), no > 
varnish, no sludge, no "coking out" in the wrong places, etc. Note > that you MUST wash it 
until it's water clear -- the brown muck I've > seen on TV makes me shudder! Nothing like some residual 
lye to > clean up the IP, eh??
?
A bit more work, but better fuel.?
?
If you have poor combustion, I suspect that WVO WILL coke up the > rings pretty fast, and I 
suspect most of the cheapskates who want to > run "free" fuel aren't going to put the 
$ into getting the engine > into tip top shape first.?
?
Peter?
?
On May 10, 2009, at 2:32 AM, Luther wrote:?
?

Frybrid is in this for profit. Please show me independent and >> repeatable research that shows 
where VO (WVO or SVO) will not cause >> long term damage to an engine. In 5 years of being around 
WVO/>> biodiesel, no one has shown me this research. VO must be heated >> over 350F to make 
the viscosity similar to diesel.?
?
A quote from the Frybrid website:?
"?
The simplest way to explain this is with a simple analogy: Imagine >> placing a pan on the stove, pouring a 
small amount of vegetable oil >> in the pan, and turning the heat to high. The pan will begin to >> 
heat up and as it does it will heat the oil, around 300F the oil >> will start to smoke, then turn black, 
stick to the pan, and destroy >> it. Now put out the fire, open all the doors and windows and allow >> 
the air to clear.*?
"?
*?
BUZZZZZZZZZTTTTTTTT, WRONG! Fries are cooked in oil at temps >> around 350F!?
"?
On a typical day at McDonald's, oil temperature in the fryer >> averages about 340 degrees F. So when a cook 
grabs strips of icy >> potatoes out of the freezer and tosses them into hot oil, water in >> the 
potatoes immediately begins to evaporate. Bubbles and steam >> emerge, creating an enormous cycle of heat 
transfer between the oil >> and the potato. The process, Farkas says, may be the most important >> 
factor in producing the texture of the final fried product.?
"?
from http://ucdavismagazine.ucdavis.edu/issues/su01/feature_2.html?
?
or?
"?
Cooking time in 360 degree F Oil?
"?
from http://www.mvproduce.com/ffries.html?
?
And for the smoke points of different oils:?
"?
?
1. Wikipedia <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smoke_point> lists the?
smoke points of some popular oils as:?
* Canola oil (Refined): 468 degrees Fahrenheit (242 degrees?
Celsius)?
* Corn oil (Refined): 450 degrees Fahrenheit (232 degrees?
Celsius)?
* Grapeseed oil: 420 degrees Fahrenheit (216 degrees Celsius)?
* Lard: 370 degrees Fahrenheit (182 degrees Celsius)?
* Peanut oil (Refined): 450 degrees Fahrenheit (232 degrees?
Celsius)?
* Safflower oil (Refined): 450 degrees Fahrenheit (232 >> degrees?
Celsius)?
* Sunflower oil (Semirefined): 450 degrees Fahrenheit (232?
degrees Celsius)?
* Vegetable shortening: 360 degrees Fahrenheit (182 degrees?
Celsius)?
o These smoke points are not set in stone, as much?
depends on the oil brand and refinement process?
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cooking_oil>. A general?
rule is that lighter, more refined oils have higher?
smoke points <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cooking_oil>> >.?
?
"?
from http://www.mahalo.com/How_to_Deep_Fry_Anything?
?
Given that Frybrid blatantly lies about the smoke point of VO, what >> else in their "bibliography of 
research papers" is stretching the >> truth or a blatant lie? Oh yes, the wonders of the internet, 
where >> you can say anything you want and find P.T. Barnum suckers all day >> long.....?
?
Luther, still not sold on vegetable oil as a diesel fuel substitute?
?
?
Michael E. Esh wrote:?

Here is the site of the system I am currently using to burn waste >>> vegetable?
oil. (WVO) I simple filter the oil using a small centrifuge. I >>> do not?
process it into bio diesel. What I am doing is very safe. This >>> site?
explains the process very clearly.?
http://www.frybrid.com/svo.htm?
?
Thanks,?
?
mike?
?
?
-----Original Message-----?
From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com?
[mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com]on Behalf Of Luther?
Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 1:01 AM?
To: Mercedes Discussion List?
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Doing SVO Wrong?
?
?
Please provide the link to the study you read.?
?
Luther?
?
Tyler wrote:?
?

These sort of engine problems are essentially unheard of in MB >>>> diesels?
that haven't run WVO.?
?
I still stand by the claim that WVO is good, but only if the oil is?
heated really hot, and filtered really well (and it almost never >>>> is).?
I did read a well designed scientific study once which showed no?
measurable long term wear increase using well heated WVO compared >>>> to?
regular diesel, but cold WVO caused serious engine damage in a >>>> short?
time period. I suppose people will want a link... I'll see if I can?
find it.?
?
Sincerely,?
Tyler?
?
On May 8, 2009, at 6:11 PM, Michael LaFleur wrote:?
?
?

Why is it that every benz that has an engine problem that was >>>>> run on?
WVO, WVO is blamedas the reason for the failure, but every other >>>>> benz?
that has an engine problem, diesel is not the blame??
?
Mike?

-->> Luther KB5QHU Alma, Ark?
'87 300SDL (281,xxx mi)?
'85 Ford F250 6.9 diesel (x59,xxx mi) BioBeast?
'82 300CD (183 kmi)?
'82 300D (74 kmi) getting donor engine-sold?
'85 300D (280,176) parts car sans engine "The Accordion"?
?
?
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Re: [MBZ] Doing SVO Wrong

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