-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA512 Thus Theo de Raadt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> spake Thu, 01 Nov 2007 05:43:06 -0600:
> Where's the diffs Timo? > > Are you going to continue preaching bullshit, and then not showing > diffs? (Please see the bottom of the email for my reply. As it used to be.) > > Thus Coleman Kane <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> spake on Wed, 31 Oct 2007 > > 22:03:05 -0400: > > > > > Timo Schoeler wrote: > > > > Thus Theo de Raadt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> spake on Wed, 31 > > > > Oct 2007 16:04:31 -0600: > > > > > > > > Perfect. You were the last person I suspected to post an answer > > > > like this. However: Arguments? Or just polemics and poo? > > > > > > > > > > > >> Tough Shit, Timo. > > > >> > > > >> > > > >>> Thus "Kjell Wooding" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> spake on Wed, > > > >>> 31 Oct 2007 10:29:51 -0600: > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>>>> @ragge: please don't top-post and full-quote ;) > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> //mirabilos > > > >>>>> > > > >>>> STOP. there is NOTHING BLOODY WRONG with top-posting. It's > > > >>>> like arguing big-endian, little-endian. > > > >>>> > > > >>>> (and it's his own bloody mailing list) > > > >>>> > > > >>>> -kj > > > >>>> > > > >>> I tend to disagree, mainly because of following (IMHO most > > > >>> important reasons mentioned on that site): > > > >>> > > > *snip* > > > >>> http://www.caliburn.nl/topposting.html > > > >>> > > > >>> Best regards, > > > >>> > > > >>> Timo (<- Big Endian. Like Nature :) > > > > *snip sig* > > > > > Um, I tend to prefer bottom posting myself for many of the reasons > > > outlined. However, I've never had problems parsing or navigating > > > the emails of those who do top-post. > > > > But it's annoying and wastes time. > > > > > I tend to agree with Theo and others > > > here, more time is wasted by dealing with discussions on top vs. > > > bottom posting by numerous "email formatting Nazis". > > > > I agree with you and others that a useless thread popped up, BUT: > > > > I don't agree with Theo as I don't go down onto his crappy > > discussion level. (I now save much time by now writing what I > > wanted to.) > > > > > Generally, I expect plain-text email on a list and as few > > > flame-wars about off-topic points, the merits of which are not a > > > science and more personal preference. > > > > True. But this does NOT legitimate offenses. Period. > > > > > I mean, we're all volunteers here, and we really > > > care more to focus on the project at hand. > > > > True. But does that mean to scream at each other like overly > > civilized people? > > > > > -- > > > Coleman > > > > Best regards, > > > > Timo Hi list, hi Theo, IMO it's worse than annoying when language like the one you really like to use is used on a (public) mailing list where grown up people try to do some work -- regardless of being _paid_ for doing this work or doing it _voluntarily_. It's just a question of being _nice_ and paying attention to something like an _etiquette_ people around the world usually do. It's just a matter of fact that _you_ are well known for being 'difficult', having an 'abrasive personality', etc. [0] Also well known (and documented) is your use of language on (not only OpenBSD's) mailing lists. Everybody on the net can use her/his favorite search engine and will get gazillions of hits. Or go to slashdot. Your 'use' of language is almost legendary (but not in a sense that it's positive). There are some things I'd like to point out (mainly to show _why_ this _bothers_ me, and why _you_ should pay attention, too): i) Theo, you are the (main) representative of the OpenBSD project. As such, you have _a mission_. Neither I nor anybody else on the planet thinks it would be an advantage for you or the OpenBSD project to kiss about six billion butts on this planet; but this does NOT mean that you should do quite the opposite of it and scream at everybody except your best 20 developer buddies. Theo, you are well-known thoughout the internet, as well as your use of language which is more coprolalia [1] than communicating. Noteworthy is the fact that, mostly in contrast to the GNU/Linux community, BSD folks are well-known as _mature_ people who know how to behave. It's not only about the work a developer does, but also _how_ he does it -- this includes communications with the rest of the world. This behaviour of yours leads directly to problems with ii) OpenBSD (and the OpenBSD project), and its deployability (also, but not exclusively, at customers). In the past I tried to support the OpenBSD project (this includes _yourself_, just to remind you) as much as I could; I wrote articles in _the_ german Unix magazine [2],[3] covering OpenBSD; I bought the OpenBSD install media, T-Shirts, and other gimmicks; I spread the word, and installed OpenBSD (sometimes even to replace another BSD) instead of GNU/Linux or other OSes at customers' sites; I encouraged customers to support the project by buying the OpenBSD install media or donating money. I could continue this list. BUT: How to explain to a customer why I use an OS and support a project, even try to encourage _others_ to do so, when, at the same time, the main representative of this project -- you, Theo -- bitches around like this. For more than a decade now. I really had hard times to justify my use of OpenBSD (at customers) especially in this context. iii) Don't you think, Theo, that even others have the same problem (with you/your attitude)? In March 2006 you said that if there's not more donations (which were decreasing), the (OpenBSD) project will sooner or later see financial trouble. Now my question: Is your behaviour helping to _sell more_ of OpenBSD install media or is it _increasing_ the amount of donations people make? No? Guess what: People don't want to buy from jerks. That's just a plain stupid fact. iv) Coleman Kane speaks of _volunteers_ helping to develop your new compiler, Theo [5]. I never saw volunteers joining a project of which they knew that they will be treated like they just joined a bad boy gangsta rap contest. (If people do such things, they like being humiliated and do such things mainly to be humiliated, not to achive a goal like a BSD licensed compiler; but there's no real 'output' besides personal 'satisfaction' of a more sexual kind. There's no real output like a compiler, e.g.) I know that especially in the U.S. it's worse to say 'FUCK!' than actually killing another person. Hence 'nipplegate' [7]. Nuke them all, but don't _ever_ mention the word 'nipple'. I personally don't have the slightiest problem with words like this being used _appropriately_ (e.g., when you just hit your thumb with a sledgehammer, nobody would complain about you screaming 'Shit!', 'Fuck!', 'Holy smokes!' or whatever). However, a mailing list is _not_ the place where such language is used appropriately. So, in summary, I don't complain about this one time you barked at me [6] (actually, it was not the first time). I complain about you destroying motivation, scaring off potential volunteers (both for the OpenBSD project and pcc), simply about you using language that's _not appropriate_. Repeatedly. I don't want to offend anyone that is working for the OpenBSD project; I appreciate all your guys' work _very much_, but there's just too much salt in this soup (for my taste -- YMMV). The thing is: OpenBSD needs the people (who support the project) to survive; the people don't need the OpenBSD project to survive. Keep that in mind. The Diffs: No, Theo, I'm not going to patch your mores/etiquette/politeness subsystem. It's too much work, and finally: It's your part. You are responsible for your language, nobody else. No diff, no patch, no source. No CVS tree. Nothing. (btw: You will notice that GPG's OS string in my emails changed recently.) [0] -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theo_de_Raadt#OpenBSD [1] -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coprolalia [2] -- http://www.heise.de/ix/artikel/2007/01/074/ [3] -- http://www.heise.de/kiosk/archiv/ix/07/06/088_Oberwasser [4] -- http://erdelynet.com/tech/support-openbsdopenssh/ [5] -- http://marc.info/?l=pcc-list&m=119388535007170&w=2 [6] -- http://marc.info/?l=pcc-list&m=119386960422765&w=2 [7] -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nipplegate Best regards, Timo iD8DBQFHLY45UY3eBSqOgOMRCtFPAJ9MgjNPLC8jR3aCt+8nw8FYrIyjvwCfX96T j/4yxr0p2iylqry9Ac2U0xY= =UnAa -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
