Mats,
This is an interesting idea but it seems to be more complicated than
just a consideration of the residual variability (RV%) when using log
transformation with transform both sides (TBS) estimation.
First of all you appear to assume that the RV% is only a proportional
residual error but if could also include an additive component when
using TBS so that there is not a single RV% that would describe a
particular situation because it would change with concentration.
A model based estimate of AUC would typically be based on an empirical
Bayes estimate (EBE) of CL. This estimate is of course a shrinkage
estimate which will typically be biased towards the population CL but I
have realized that there is also EBE bias from the choice of
transformation used in parameter estimation. Thus I would not expect the
model based estimate to be additionally biased because of using EBEs
with TBS. This is probably something you have thought about so please
inform me.
Turning to the NCA method - I dont know if a bias is expected from the
NCA calculated AUC but I would naively assume that the trapezoidal part
would not be biased. I am ready to learn if there is a bias expected
with trapezoidal NCA. I expect this has been investigated and reported
but I am not familiar with it. The extrapolated portion typically relies
on a log linear transformation to estimate the elimination rate constant
which so in this respect the log transformed model based and NCA based
methods would seem to be similar.
Another source of difference between model and NCA based AUCs might
arise from the use of different statistics to describe the central
tendency of the indidual estimates. NCA estimates could be based on the
arithmetic mean of the individual AUC sor on the geometric mean (most
commonly used for bioequivalence analysis). The model based estimates
based on the arithmetic mean of the EBE predicted AUCs would be biased
towards the geometric mean because the population value would typically
be estimated with an exponential ETA.
If you have the time would you expand on the details of your assertion
so that I and others can understand the basis more clearly? It seems to
me that comparison of model based AUCs with NCA based AUCs is more
complicated than just a consideration of the typical value of the
residual error.
Nick
Mats Karlsson wrote:
Dear Ethan,
Just a caution when comparing model-based AUCs with NCA calculated
AUCs. If you have done your modeling using log-transformation of
observations and model predictions and then compared AUCs on the
linear scale, you should not expect a perfect agreement between the
two. The reason is that the mean of an exponentiated distribution of
epsilons is not the same as the median, but higher. Thus, the AUCs of
model-predicted individual profiles will be expected to be lower than
either simulated or observed. The magnitude of the difference will
depend on the residual error magnitude and will typically be:
%RV expected AUC difference
10 0.50%
20 2%
30 5%
40 9%
50 14%
70 29%
Best regards,
Mats
Mats Karlsson, PhD
Professor of Pharmacometrics
Dept of Pharmaceutical Biosciences
Uppsala University
Box 591
751 24 Uppsala Sweden
phone: +46 18 4714105
fax: +46 18 471 4003
*From:* owner-nmus...@globomaxnm.com
[mailto:owner-nmus...@globomaxnm.com] *On Behalf Of *Ethan Wu
*Sent:* Friday, March 20, 2009 6:52 PM
*To:* michael.j.foss...@gsk.com; nmusers@globomaxnm.com
*Subject:* Re: [NMusers] calculation of AUC
sorry for being lazy this morning and wish relying on others knowledge
just to share, I used DADT=C method, and it didn't depend on sampling
after I tried with my model (which took quite a while to get results)
-- I could do as Bill suggested setting up some small dataset and
simple model to check first, then would share with the group ealier :-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:* "michael.j.foss...@gsk.com" <michael.j..foss...@gsk.com>
*To:* nmusers@globomaxnm.com
*Sent:* Friday, March 20, 2009 9:42:59 AM
*Subject:* Fw: [NMusers] calculation of AUC
I second Bill's suggestion to work this out on your own for your
specific problem. This forum can help you with general questions and
overall approaches, but very specific queries like this are for you
and your colleagues to hash out.
*Error! Filename not specified.*
----- Forwarded by Michael J Fossler/PharmRD/GSK on 03/20/2009 09:40
AM -----
*"Bill Bachman" <bachm...@comcast.net>*
Sent by: owner-nmus...@globomaxnm.com
20-Mar-2009 09:17
To
"'Martin Bergstrand'" <martin.bergstr...@farmbio.uu.se>, "'Ethan Wu'"
<ethan.w...@yahoo.com>, nmusers@globomaxnm.com
cc
Subject
RE: [NMusers] calculation of AUC
The easiest answer is to work it out. Do some simulations (without
variability) with multiple subjects with identical PK parameters BUT
different sampling times. Tabulate your AUCs and compare the results
for different sampling times!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:* owner-nmus...@globomaxnm.com
[mailto:owner-nmus...@globomaxnm.com] *On Behalf Of *Martin Bergstrand*
Sent:* Friday, March 20, 2009 8:45 AM*
To:* 'Ethan Wu'; nmus...@globomaxnm.com*
Subject:* RE: [NMusers] calculation of AUC
Dear Ethan,
You need to provide more information on how you plan to calculate AUC
otherwise the question can’t be answered. It is of course possible to
calculate the AUC without any influence of the sampling frequency. You
should be able to find examples of how to do this in the NMusers
archive. See for example the answer from Mats Karlsson in this thread
(http://nonmem..org/nonmem/nm/98apr032002.html
<http://nonmem.org/nonmem/nm/98apr032002.html>).
Kind regards,
Martin Bergstrand, MSc, PhD student
-----------------------------------------------
Department of Pharmaceutical Biosciences,
Uppsala University
-----------------------------------------------
P.O. Box 591
SE-751 24 Uppsala
Sweden
-----------------------------------------------
martin.bergstr...@farmbio.uu.se <mailto:martin.bergstr...@farmbio.uu.se>
-----------------------------------------------
Work: +46 18 471 4639
Mobile: +46 709 994 396
Fax: +46 18 471 4003
*From:* owner-nmus...@globomaxnm.com
[mailto:owner-nmus...@globomaxnm.com] *On Behalf Of *Ethan Wu*
Sent:* den 20 mars 2009 13:05*
To:* nmus...@globomaxnm.com*
Subject:* [NMusers] calculation of AUC
Hi all, to calculate AUC of one of the compartments using ADVAN6, if
it is a fixed time interval, will the AUC be influenced by the
frequncy of sampling of the dataset within this interval or not?
thanks
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--
Nick Holford, Dept Pharmacology & Clinical Pharmacology
University of Auckland, 85 Park Rd, Private Bag 92019, Auckland, New Zealand
n.holf...@auckland.ac.nz tel:+64(9)923-6730 fax:+64(9)373-7090
http://www.fmhs.auckland.ac.nz/sms/pharmacology/holford
