Very well put on both. So, not to hijack the thread, but speaking of wages, does 40 - 43 per hour sound reasonable in the Midwest for a 2nd level infrastructure specialist ? Assuming if you're placed through a staffing firm, they are charging double that and paying the person half the client rate.
As Paul said, it seems like there are wage adjustments in effect from what was paid in the past. ________________________________ From: "Maglinger, Paul" <pmaglin...@scvl.com> To: NT System Admin Issues <ntsysadmin@lyris.sunbelt-software.com> Sent: Friday, February 3, 2012 9:29 AM Subject: RE: OT - ugh! One other thing that I think we may see is adjustments in wages. Starting positions may not offer the same wages as they did in the past in an attempt for companies to lower costs. I also see what I perceive as attempts by OEMs to woo companies to outsource more and more services to them (such as HP) rather than encourage companies to have well-trained engineers. Of course if you pay peanuts you're still going to get monkeys, unless someone can't afford to eat anything else. -----Original Message----- From: David Lum [mailto:david....@nwea.org] Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 7:59 AM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: OT - ugh! That was well put, Ken. -----Original Message----- From: Ken Schaefer [mailto:k...@adopenstatic.com] Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 7:39 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: OT - ugh! I think our opinions are coloured by our industry and in particular working in (small scale) systems administrator, which is more of a trade than a profession. For many other professions: civil engineering, medicine, accounting - there is no way you'd get anywhere in most countries without a degree. There is simply too much established theory in those fields that you just have to know in order to be useful. Systems engineering might be a bit different because basic theory and principles are not as well established. Software and electrical engineering are perhaps more established, and there are many algorithms, principles and methodologies (like lifecycle management, project management) etc that a structured course such as a degree can help you with. That said, systems engineering will change to. Organisations (starting with the biggest, but I suspect it'll eventually make its way down to the smaller ones) are looking for structured, repeatable, predictable delivery. They outsource. They get x service for $y within z minutes/hours/days. And the companies that provide it (HP/EDS, CSC, IBM, Satyam, Wipro, etc.) all have regulated processes, backed by technologies (invariably built upon ITIL at the moment). If you want to get ahead in this type of world, there'll have to be some theory that you need to learn, because deep technical skills are for architecture/design/implementation, and not operations (except for those in high severity incident management). Operations is about following processes, managing expectations, and executing structured/tested change requests. Cheers Ken -----Original Message----- From: Mathew Shember [mailto:mathew.shem...@synopsys.com] Sent: Friday, 3 February 2012 3:57 AM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: OT - ugh! Indeed. Certs and degrees are used by people who aren't technical and don't know what to ask let alone evaluate. I have seen talent from prestigious schools and I have seen lunkheads from prestigious schools. The universities were setting rather high expectations however. A friend used to handle the college new hires and he said he had to talk a few off the ledge because they weren't VPs inside of 6 months. Thanks, Mathew -----Original Message----- From: Ben Scott [mailto:mailvor...@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 11:31 AM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Re: OT - ugh! In my personal experience, I haven't seen any correlation between any degree/certification and actual aptitude/knowledge/value. They're certainly not less likely, but don't appear to be significantly more, either. I have, however, seen correlation between degree/certification and hiring/pay. I suspect this is mainly because it's easier to quantify. "Does he have a degree?" is an easier question to answer than "How good is he?" On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 12:55 PM, Jeff Brown <jbr...@webcoindustries.com> wrote: > Those are some seriously sour grapes you are sucking on. I had a boss > who said it this way, "the degree proves he/she can finish something". > There are no guarantees that anyone is a good or outstanding employee, > at least there are SEVERAL examples shared here to point out that > degrees or certs don't guarantee competence. Anyone who's done IT for > more than a few years can provide additional examples, probably good > AND bad. (with or without degrees or certs). > > > > Your posts suggest that you think a degreed person is LESS likely to > have competence.. sorry, that just sounds like sour grapes to me. > > > > From: Jonathan Link [mailto:jonathan.l...@gmail.com] > Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 9:49 AM > > To: NT System Admin Issues > Subject: Re: OT - ugh! > > > > That isn't my observation. > > On Thursday, February 2, 2012, Maglinger, Paul <pmaglin...@scvl.com> wrote: >> A college degree (usually) indicates that someone has obtained >> certain literary, communication, and fact-finding skills that are >> useful in the workplace. >> >> >> >> From: Jonathan Link [mailto:jonathan.l...@gmail.com] >> Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 9:02 AM > >> To: NT System Admin Issues >> Subject: Re: OT - ugh! >> >> >> >> Going to college opens doors. And it almost doesn't even matter what >> the degree is in. I think it's like a secret handshake. It says "I >> can navigate a byzantine bureaucracy and complete a series of tasks >> without close supervision." >> >> >> >> I might be wrong, but I think it's always there in the subconscious. >> I had doors open for me that were previously shut by completing a >> degree (my degree is not in IT, but in accountancy). >> >> On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 9:29 AM, David Lum <david....@nwea.org> wrote: >> >> "This position requires a degree. Sorry. Click." >> >> Wow. I can see the college degree being a tiebreaker, but I can only >> guess the person making that statement doesn't fully understand the tech >> industry? >> Or, maybe not having gone to college myself I don't understand that >> thinking. >> >> It could have also been their way of backing out, instead of saying >> "we changed our minds on our needs" or "we hired from inside". I've >> heard of that kind of thing before - where what the person not >> getting hired wasn't told what was really happening. >> >> Dave >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Webster [mailto:webs...@carlwebster.com] >> >> Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2012 5:16 PM >> To: NT System Admin Issues >> >> Subject: RE: OT - ugh! >> >> Last year I was in the final interview for a Citrix Architect >> position for a very large company in Nashville. IIRC, it was like >> interview #6 or 7 in the process. I had been talking with the >> executive for over 45 minutes when "all of a sudden" he says "Oh, I'm >> sorry I didn't realize you had no college degree. This position requires a >> degree. Sorry. Click." >> >> I then took MBS' advice and went solo. I say screw FTE! :) >> >> >> Carl Webster >> Consultant and Citrix Technology Professional >> http://www.CarlWebster.com >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: MMF [mailto:mmfree...@ameritech.net] >> >>> Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2012 6:43 PM >>> To: NT System Admin Issues >> >>> Subject: Re: OT - ugh! >>> >>> Assuming they're being honest, it tells me that they are not very >>> strong in background checking. How could they have missed the fact >>> that you've been with one company for more than 10 years. I've NEVER >>> ever heard of a company offering a job and then withdrawing the >>> offer, period, much less before total background check. I believe >>> that I can fully understand the idea of wanting IT staff that has a >>> varied background which would include more than one job over a >>> decade. I think you are fortunate that you didn't take the job >>> because it sounds to me that the organization isn't of the highest >>> quality, if you catch my drift. Sometimes things happen for the best >>> in spite of your best efforts. They didn't vet you, but how well did >>> you vet them! It's also obvious that they don't recognize talent when they >>> see it! >>> >>> Murray >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: James Hill >> >>> Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2012 6:09 PM >>> To: NT System Admin Issues >> >>> Subject: RE: OT - ugh! >>> >>> I feel for you. >>> >>> But try and look at this way. If they can't see the value you can >>> offer now then it would only be a continual uphill fight if you were >>> employed by them. >>> >>> You are better off with an employer that shares your values. >>> >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Jacob Kisner [mailto:jbdkis...@gmail.com] >> >>> Sent: Thursday, 2 February 2012 9:52 AM >> >>> To: NT System Admin Issues >> >>> Subject: Re: OT - ugh! >>> >>> "Because we feel you are not diversified enough to address our issues." >>> >>> Same issues I have addressed over the years poor issue management, >>> no project management, no documentation, crashing servers, IT staff >>> treating the network like a high school lab.. etc. Not only can I >>> stop the bleeding and stabilize the patient (gave then how I would >>> do it), I can implement a more proactive approach to IT management >>> and stop the fires (also gave >>> details.) >>> >>> I guess they rather have the fires... >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 3:27 PM, Don Kuhlman <drkuhl...@yahoo.com> >>> wrote: >>> > That makes no sense - why do they care where yo >> >> >> >> ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ >> <http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/> ~ >> >> --- >> To manage subscriptions click here: >> http://lyris.sunbelt-software.com/read/my_forums/ >> or send an email to listmana...@lyris.sunbeltsoftware.com >> with the body: unsubscribe ntsysadmin >> >> ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ >> <http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/> ~ >> >> --- >> To manage subscriptions click here: >> http://lyris.sunbelt-software.com/read/my_forums/ >> or send an email to listmana...@lyris.sunbeltsoftware.com >> with the body: unsubscribe ntsysadmin > > ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ > <http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/> ~ > > --- > To manage subscriptions click here: > http://lyris.sunbelt-software.com/read/my_forums/ > or send an email to listmana...@lyris.sunbeltsoftware.com > with the body: unsubscribe ntsysadmin > > > This email and any attachments transmitted with it are confidential > and intended solely for the use of the addressee. 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