In the janitor's closet. On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 1:52 PM, Sam Cayze <sca...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Obviously it means infrastructure located on the second floor :)**** > > ** ** > > *From:* Andrew S. Baker [mailto:asbz...@gmail.com] > *Sent:* Friday, February 03, 2012 11:58 AM > > *To:* NT System Admin Issues > *Subject:* Re: OT - ugh!**** > > ** ** > > Please define the role of: 2nd level infrastructure specialist ?**** > > ** ** > > Those words can mean so many different things to people. > **** > > *ASB***** > > *http://XeeMe.com/AndrewBaker***** > > *Harnessing the Advantages of Technology for the SMB market…***** > > > > **** > > On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 11:46 AM, Don Kuhlman <drkuhl...@yahoo.com> wrote:* > *** > > Very well put on both.**** > > ** ** > > So, not to hijack the thread, but speaking of wages, does 40 - 43 per hour > sound reasonable in the Midwest for a 2nd level infrastructure specialist > ? Assuming if you're placed through a staffing firm, they are charging > double that and paying the person half the client rate.**** > > ** ** > > As Paul said, it seems like there are wage adjustments in effect from what > was paid in the past.**** > > ** ** > ------------------------------ > > *From:* "Maglinger, Paul" <pmaglin...@scvl.com> > *To:* NT System Admin Issues <ntsysadmin@lyris.sunbelt-software.com> > *Sent:* Friday, February 3, 2012 9:29 AM**** > > > *Subject:* RE: OT - ugh!**** > > > One other thing that I think we may see is adjustments in wages. Starting > positions may not offer the same wages as they did in the past in an > attempt for companies to lower costs. I also see what I perceive as > attempts by OEMs to woo companies to outsource more and more services to > them (such as HP) rather than encourage companies to have well-trained > engineers. Of course if you pay peanuts you're still going to get monkeys, > unless someone can't afford to eat anything else. > > -----Original Message----- > From: David Lum [mailto:david....@nwea.org] > Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 7:59 AM > To: NT System Admin Issues > Subject: RE: OT - ugh! > > That was well put, Ken. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ken Schaefer [mailto:k...@adopenstatic.com] > Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 7:39 PM > To: NT System Admin Issues > Subject: RE: OT - ugh! > > I think our opinions are coloured by our industry and in particular > working in (small scale) systems administrator, which is more of a trade > than a profession. > > For many other professions: civil engineering, medicine, accounting - > there is no way you'd get anywhere in most countries without a degree. > There is simply too much established theory in those fields that you just > have to know in order to be useful. Systems engineering might be a bit > different because basic theory and principles are not as well established. > Software and electrical engineering are perhaps more established, and there > are many algorithms, principles and methodologies (like lifecycle > management, project management) etc that a structured course such as a > degree can help you with. > > That said, systems engineering will change to. Organisations (starting > with the biggest, but I suspect it'll eventually make its way down to the > smaller ones) are looking for structured, repeatable, predictable delivery. > They outsource. They get x service for $y within z minutes/hours/days. And > the companies that provide it (HP/EDS, CSC, IBM, Satyam, Wipro, etc.) all > have regulated processes, backed by technologies (invariably built upon > ITIL at the moment). If you want to get ahead in this type of world, > there'll have to be some theory that you need to learn, because deep > technical skills are for architecture/design/implementation, and not > operations (except for those in high severity incident management). > Operations is about following processes, managing expectations, and > executing structured/tested change requests. > > Cheers > Ken > > -----Original Message----- > From: Mathew Shember [mailto:mathew.shem...@synopsys.com] > Sent: Friday, 3 February 2012 3:57 AM > To: NT System Admin Issues > Subject: RE: OT - ugh! > > Indeed. > > Certs and degrees are used by people who aren't technical and don't know > what to ask let alone evaluate. > > I have seen talent from prestigious schools and I have seen lunkheads from > prestigious schools. > > The universities were setting rather high expectations however. A friend > used to handle the college new hires and he said he had to talk a few off > the ledge because they weren't VPs inside of 6 months. > > Thanks, > Mathew > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ben Scott [mailto:mailvor...@gmail.com] > Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 11:31 AM > To: NT System Admin Issues > Subject: Re: OT - ugh! > > In my personal experience, I haven't seen any correlation between any > degree/certification and actual aptitude/knowledge/value. They're > certainly not less likely, but don't appear to be significantly more, > either. > > I have, however, seen correlation between degree/certification and > hiring/pay. > > I suspect this is mainly because it's easier to quantify. "Does he have > a degree?" is an easier question to answer than "How good is he?" > > On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 12:55 PM, Jeff Brown <jbr...@webcoindustries.com> > wrote: > > Those are some seriously sour grapes you are sucking on. I had a boss > > who said it this way, "the degree proves he/she can finish something". > > There are no guarantees that anyone is a good or outstanding employee, > > at least there are SEVERAL examples shared here to point out that > > degrees or certs don't guarantee competence. Anyone who's done IT for > > more than a few years can provide additional examples, probably good > > AND bad. (with or without degrees or certs). > > > > > > > > Your posts suggest that you think a degreed person is LESS likely to > > have competence.. sorry, that just sounds like sour grapes to me. > > > > > > > > From: Jonathan Link [mailto:jonathan.l...@gmail.com] > > Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 9:49 AM > > > > To: NT System Admin Issues > > Subject: Re: OT - ugh! > > > > > > > > That isn't my observation. > > > > On Thursday, February 2, 2012, Maglinger, Paul <pmaglin...@scvl.com> > wrote: > >> A college degree (usually) indicates that someone has obtained > >> certain literary, communication, and fact-finding skills that are > >> useful in the workplace. > >> > >> > >> > >> From: Jonathan Link [mailto:jonathan.l...@gmail.com] > >> Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 9:02 AM > > > >> To: NT System Admin Issues > >> Subject: Re: OT - ugh! > >> > >> > >> > >> Going to college opens doors. And it almost doesn't even matter what > >> the degree is in. I think it's like a secret handshake. It says "I > >> can navigate a byzantine bureaucracy and complete a series of tasks > >> without close supervision." > >> > >> > >> > >> I might be wrong, but I think it's always there in the subconscious. > >> I had doors open for me that were previously shut by completing a > >> degree (my degree is not in IT, but in accountancy). > >> > >> On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 9:29 AM, David Lum <david....@nwea.org> wrote: > >> > >> "This position requires a degree. Sorry. Click." > >> > >> Wow. I can see the college degree being a tiebreaker, but I can only > >> guess the person making that statement doesn't fully understand the > tech industry? > >> Or, maybe not having gone to college myself I don't understand that > >> thinking. > >> > >> It could have also been their way of backing out, instead of saying > >> "we changed our minds on our needs" or "we hired from inside". I've > >> heard of that kind of thing before - where what the person not > >> getting hired wasn't told what was really happening. > >> > >> Dave > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Webster [mailto:webs...@carlwebster.com] > >> > >> Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2012 5:16 PM > >> To: NT System Admin Issues > >> > >> Subject: RE: OT - ugh! > >> > >> Last year I was in the final interview for a Citrix Architect > >> position for a very large company in Nashville. IIRC, it was like > >> interview #6 or 7 in the process. I had been talking with the > >> executive for over 45 minutes when "all of a sudden" he says "Oh, I'm > >> sorry I didn't realize you had no college degree. This position > requires a degree. Sorry. Click." > >> > >> I then took MBS' advice and went solo. I say screw FTE! :) > >> > >> > >> Carl Webster > >> Consultant and Citrix Technology Professional > >> http://www.CarlWebster.com > >> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: MMF [mailto:mmfree...@ameritech.net] > >> > >>> Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2012 6:43 PM > >>> To: NT System Admin Issues > >> > >>> Subject: Re: OT - ugh! > >>> > >>> Assuming they're being honest, it tells me that they are not very > >>> strong in background checking. How could they have missed the fact > >>> that you've been with one company for more than 10 years. I've NEVER > >>> ever heard of a company offering a job and then withdrawing the > >>> offer, period, much less before total background check. I believe > >>> that I can fully understand the idea of wanting IT staff that has a > >>> varied background which would include more than one job over a > >>> decade. I think you are fortunate that you didn't take the job > >>> because it sounds to me that the organization isn't of the highest > >>> quality, if you catch my drift. Sometimes things happen for the best > >>> in spite of your best efforts. They didn't vet you, but how well did > >>> you vet them! It's also obvious that they don't recognize talent when > they see it! > >>> > >>> Murray > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: James Hill > >> > >>> Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2012 6:09 PM > >>> To: NT System Admin Issues > >> > >>> Subject: RE: OT - ugh! > >>> > >>> I feel for you. > >>> > >>> But try and look at this way. If they can't see the value you can > >>> offer now then it would only be a continual uphill fight if you were > >>> employed by them. > >>> > >>> You are better off with an employer that shares your values. > >>> > >> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: Jacob Kisner [mailto:jbdkis...@gmail.com] > >> > >>> Sent: Thursday, 2 February 2012 9:52 AM > >> > >>> To: NT System Admin Issues > >> > >>> Subject: Re: OT - ugh! > >>> > >>> "Because we feel you are not diversified enough to address our > issues." > >>> > >>> Same issues I have addressed over the years poor issue management, > >>> no project management, no documentation, crashing servers, IT staff > >>> treating the network like a high school lab.. etc. Not only can I > >>> stop the bleeding and stabilize the patient (gave then how I would > >>> do it), I can implement a more proactive approach to IT management > >>> and stop the fires (also gave > >>> details.) > >>> > >>> I guess they rather have the fires... > >>> > >>> > >>> On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 3:27 PM, Don Kuhlman <drkuhl...@yahoo.com> > >>> wrote: > >>> > That makes no sense - why do they care where yo > >> > >> > >> > >> ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ > >> <http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/> ~ > >> > >> --- > >> To manage subscriptions click here: > >> http://lyris.sunbelt-software.com/read/my_forums/ > >> or send an email to listmana...@lyris.sunbeltsoftware.com > >> with the body: unsubscribe ntsysadmin > >> > >> ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ > >> <http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/> ~ > >> > >> --- > >> To manage subscriptions click here: > >> http://lyris.sunbelt-software.com/read/my_forums/ > >> or send an email to listmana...@lyris.sunbeltsoftware.com > >> with the body: unsubscribe ntsysadmin > > > > ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ > > <http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/> ~ > > > > --- > > To manage subscriptions click here: > > http://lyris.sunbelt-software.com/read/my_forums/ > > or send an email to listmana...@lyris.sunbeltsoftware.com > > with the body: unsubscribe ntsysadmin > > > > > > This email and any attachments transmitted with it are confidential > > and intended solely for the use of the addressee. 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