Dana,
I never stated or meant to imply that I was against all taxes. Some are
necessary. The problem is that far too many people in our society look to
government to take care of them. That was never intended by those who
founded our country. Take a look at the 10th amendment to the U.S.
Constitution:
"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor
prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or
to the people."
I once saw a Democrat questioned on why he did not see that his specific
legislative proposal was not a violation of the 10th amendment. His reply
was:
"Why, if you took that literally, the Federal government would hardly be
able to do ANYTHING!"
Yes, he was getting close there but he still didn't get it. That is EXACTLY
what the intent of our founders was. Provide for the common defense,
deliver mail, put bad people away where they could not hurt the good people,
and pretty much every thing else was to be the responsibility of
individuals, OR, if individuals preferred, they could delegate more
responsibility to their local and state governments, as permitted by their
individual state constitutions, but NOT the federal government.
As for your other arguments, there are private roads that work quite
well but I agree that for the most part interstate highways are best under
the jurisdiction of the federal governemtn and if anthing passed the
interstate commerce clause test, it's highways. That said, I can see the
same argument being made for broadband but up to this point, only one person
has even approached making that argument on this list. Instead, the argument
has mostly been that government support for broadband should be ok because
it's a "good" thing. Helping poor people get broadband Internet access has
no legal justification that I can see. Helping to make broadband pervasive
and make it faster for all because it is good for business IS an argument
that will pass Constitutional muster IMO.
Of course, the same can be said for telephone service and now with
things like QVC and Home Shopping Network, video too. Yet, those mediums
have never been federalized, only regulated.
Respectfully,
Jim
-----Original Message-----
From: Dana Spiegel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2006 2:38 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: 'Rob Kelley'; 'nycwireless'
Subject: Re: [nycwireless] Municipal Broadband - Must read!
Jim,
this has been a good discussion so far, and I certainly respect your right
to argue that you don't want to pay as much in taxes as you do.
But making the analogy that our government collecting taxes is robbing
individuals and amounts to extortion is blatantly incorrect.
By your argument, as a private citizen, I should come after *you* for making
use of lots of "public" infrastructure for free if you don't pay your taxes.
Let's not forget that fundamentally, our government is a collective
organization of THE PEOPLE of the USA. And by collecting taxes (ignoring the
argument about *how much* to tax) is an action that is given BY THE PEOPLE
to our government to enforce based on the understanding that some amount of
this country (services, land, etc.) is public property/service specifically
because holding it in the public's interest benefits many/most/all people
collectively, and that the cost of providing those services must be a burden
on many/most/all people.
Taxes are the way that we have all agreed we can share this country with
each other.
Now, you can argue you are paying to much in taxes, or that you don't
believe that your taxes are being used in your best interest. That's exactly
the purpose of the 1st Amendment. And you should argue those things, because
we do need to talk about them.
The fundamental argument that is being made by a number of individuals is
that access to the internet has become (is becoming) a public service, and
that as a public service, we need to think about it in a different way. Just
as we don't allow streets to be built and sold using market mechanisms (we
understand that this would not serve everyone's best interest), perhaps we
shouldn't allow internet service to be provided solely based on market
mechanisms.
Capitalism isn't what made this country great. Capitalism makes a small
percentage of this country wealthy. But generally, it works. The issue at
hand is: does capitalism and free market economics work properly for
internet service, and is the outcome of this method proper? Economics 101
will tell you that there are limits to free market economies and the powers
of capitalism. Its just a tool, and like any tool, its not universal.
Dana Spiegel
Executive Director
NYCwireless
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.NYCwireless.net
+1 917 402 0422
Read the Wireless Community blog: http://www.wirelesscommunity.info
On Jan 7, 2006, at 7:23 PM, Jim Henry wrote:
Rob,
And as my tax dollars won't be funding what you do in NYC, as long as you
don't snare any federal funds, I have absolutley no objection to it! I
merely wanted to correct the misunderstanding about broadband being cheaper
elsewhere than in the U.S. It's not. Don't forget, it's capitalism that
made this nation the greatest in the world, and in fact it's capitalism that
makes all these neat wireless gadgets that we love so, possible! I doubt
that even our socialist European neighbors, or the Asians who produce most
of the wireless gear, would make it at all if there were not big money in
it.
WRT my statement that taxation is theft, if I told you to give me
several thousand dollars or I would come and get you, you would probably
laugh it off, even if I promised to use the money for "a good purpose".
However, once you heard that I had done just that to hundreds or thousands
of people, that those people are now in prison because they would not give
me their money, that they are going to STAY in prison, and that the highest
legal authority in the land had confirmed that it's ok for me to do that, I
bet you would give me some money the next time I asked. You may feel it's
all ok, but if I were in your shoes I would feel I've been robbed. Yes,
taxation is theft. When someone works hard to become a success, it's immoral
to take their money by threat of force to give it to someone who didn't earn
it. We've gotten way off track in the last hundred years and are using
forced wealth redistribution to fill society's needs that have always been
served by charity and church.
Anyway we're getting off topic. I only wanted to correct the
misunderstanding that broadband is cheaper elsewhere than in the U.S. and
since then I've only responded to related points made by others. I really
want to stay on topic if possible.
Jim
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Rob Kelley
Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 1:50 PM
To: 'nycwireless'
Subject: RE: [nycwireless] Municipal Broadband - Must read!
Jim:
Maybe in airpower's home of Lansdowne, PA, people think
"taxation is theft" (though I doubt it).
Here in NYC, as in NYCwireless, people put up with some of
the highest income tax rates in the country. Why? Because
we believe in the city, the urban environment, and communal
services. Tax-ranting is really out of place.
If you want low taxes, try Alaska. If we want to have
community access in NYC, we need to focus on the real value
it can provide as a communal service and figure out how to
make it happen.
Rob
--- Jim Henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Lars,
I'm OK with street lights and quite a bit more, but
you've got to
draw the line somewhere. I certainly don't want my tax
dollars paying
for soeone
else's water, electricity, gas, medicine, education,
healthcare, etc.
As to
the cost of your broadband connection, I'd be willing to
bet you are
not
counting the taxes you and your fellow subjects pay for that
municipal fiber
network as part of that $40/month. Beyond that, I'd also bet you
pay a
much larger percentage of your income in taxes than I, though mine
are
already far too high. Taxation is theft and thus immoral.
Jim
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Lars Aronsson
Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 7:46 AM
To: 'nycwireless'
Subject: RE: [nycwireless] Municipal Broadband - Must read!
Jim Henry wrote:
Just curious, does anyone know if in these countries where
broadband is cheaper and more prevalent than the U.S., is it
really cheaper or is it subsidized by the government? I
honestly
don't know the answer. I would like it to be cheaper here also
and more widespread, but not at the expense of free enterprise.
If it takes socialism to accomplish this, I don't want it.
I heard that socialism has gone away now that "cialis" is caught
in the spam filters. Seriously, though, I have yet to see street
lights operated on a pay-per-view commercial basis.
Somebody paid
once-and-for-all to pave and light the streets, and it could be
tax money. Does that make it socialism?
In Sweden I pay 320 SEK/mo ($40) for 10 Mbit/s. This is possible
because I live in a coop apartment building, where every
apartment
is wired by an ISP, and the in-house switched LAN is connected to
a municipal fiber in the basement. This ISP
(www.bredband.com) was
founded with venture capital during the dotcom boom and got a
contract with the largest national association of apartment coops
(www.hsb.se). Through this contract, apartment coops that are
members have a very streamlined procedure for signing up to get
their apartment buildings wired.
This spring, the ISP is introducing a reduced price 2 Mbit/s
offering (still over CAT-5 twisted pair ethernet, so I
guess it is
really 10 Mbit/s but bandwidth limited) and at the same time my
line is upgraded to 100 Mbit/s at unchanged price.
As far as I know, there is no direct government subsidy, but a lot
of factors work together:
* Compared to the U.S., more people here live in apartments.
People living in private homes cannot get broadband as cheap,
simply because wiring a dozen apartments in one building is a
lot cheaper than wiring a dozen private homes.
* Coops is a very common form of apartment ownership in Sweden
since the 1930s, and the national associations work pretty
well. The nationwide template contract made it easier for a
lot of small coops to sign up, who don't have the technical
insights to do their own negotiations.
* The dotcom boom provided the venture capital for this
broadband-only ISP. You could call this "subsidized by stupid
investors". I guess the stock price has fallen, but at least
this company is still around.
* The old national telco is not involved at all in this solution.
* The ISP rents dark fiber from the municipal utility between my
building and the ISP's facility in this town. The municipal
water, sewer, electricity, and heating utility is
operated as a
whole-owned corporation (www.tekniskaverken.se) and I don't
know exactly how they have financed the build-out of the
municipal fiber network.
I guess most of these conditions could also apply to New York
City, more than to rural or suburban America.
--
Lars Aronsson ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se
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