Just a few comments...not angry comments. :-)
As a committer on an Apache project, let me just say that decisions to
support JDK 1.1, on a per-project basis, are not about supporting "dead
things". We have, in fact, people who _must_ use JDK 1.1 (probably more than
you might think). As another example, we are a J2EE shop; but just recently
we had a (big) requirement to support ISAM data. That's ancient, too, but
I'll bet there's more ISAM data out there than there is relational data.
Would you personally turn up your nose at supporting ISAM? Well, maybe you
would. I dunno.
I haven't used Struts myself, but since you mention it, I'd guess you'd have
to ask Rickard himself why he decided to write his own framework. With all
due respect to him, the primary reason, 9 times out of 10, that people write
their own code is because as an industry we are damned terrible at re-use.
There are a whole bunch of bad reasons why this is so - laziness, arrogance,
reluctance to share the limelight, etc etc. Only rarely do you find that
somebody wrote code because they conducted a thorough search and couldn't
find anything that could even be modified. I'm personally pretty hot about
this topic because there is a huge amount of wasted time due to this.
Frameworks are a particularly bad offender - everybody and his brother wants
to write their own framework.
As far as bloat, well, that's in the eye of the beholder. If a product
provides 100 features, but any given user only needs 25 of them, but nearly
all of the features are useful to someone, it's "bloat" to almost everyone,
but also useful to almost everyone. It's only bad bloat if the extra
features get in your way, though, when you want to use your subset. I
question whether this happens that often. But most of your comments are
pretty general, so who knows exactly what you were talking about.
Are Apache products perfect? No, not by a long shot. Are they as bad as you
make them out to be? No, not by a long shot.
Regards,
Arved Sandstrom
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Victor A.
Salaman
Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2001 4:20 PM
To: Orion-Interest
Subject: RE: I switch from X to Orion because:
Tomcat does not support EJB... the original author of the message meant
Tomcat & JBoss... And that integration is pure hell... Of course, you can
download the already integrated version, but you'd be getting an old JBoss
and an old Tomcat...
The main problem with Tomcat and JBoss is also their virtue. Since
everything is so modular, it also means that there are a lot of components,
some of which have conflicts among eath other.... Among other things, JBoss
is not compliant to any spec, as simple things like java:/comp/env namespace
are plainly not supported by their jndi impl, cmp (jaws) support is very
poor and does not really scale well to more than a couple kids playing
"deploy" on 3 machines...
JBoss also has many problems deploying j2ee "ear" (Enterprise Archives) ...
Although Orion is small, it's self-contained and requires very little work
to get everything running.
<flame-warning>
I respect the authors of JBoss as they have done a great job, but you really
can't compare... it's a orange vs. apples comparison.
As for Tomcat, it gives a bad name to server-java altogether...
and as for Apache Server, well, what can I say, a simple "java" appserver
such as Orion beats its performance by leaps...
Most of the ASF is trying to stay compatible with dead things (jdk 1.1),
which makes their software suffer a great deal. For example, they dislike
the use of the Collections API, try to solve everyone's problems for
everyone, and in the way bloat their products unnecessarily... And
repeatedly "break" the rules... (How crazy is it creating threads inside the
web container [Cocoon2] when the specs specifically say that it should not
be done) ...
An example of this is Jakarta-Struts... Sure it's great... but why then did
Rickard Oberg (one of the technical leads in JBoss) create WebWork? ...
Struts is just too damned bloated... same happens with most of Apache's
offerings. It's rather sad, as most of those problems could easily be
solved...
Sometimes people on the list say things like "I can't get Cocoon to work
under Orion", "I can't get XXX Apache product to work under Orion"... well
now you know why :) haha ... Most of these problems are classloader issues
which would break anyways, but since Tomcat has an arcane single classloader
architecture, they'd never notice...
</flame-warning>
-----Original Message-----
From: Christian Sell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2001 3:01 PM
To: Orion-Interest
Subject: Re: I switch from X to Orion because:
> 2. Tomcat does not support EJB, even if it did, getting Tomcat & Apache
> working together is sometimes a hair-pulling experience.
now what exactly was your problem there? I just installed tomcat under
apache on my new Linux box, and had no problems at all - just followed the
instructions. And deploying an app is not more than copying the .war into
the webapps directory...
