Hi, Mike
Any or all of the Apache products are open to criticism, just as any
software should be.
I guess my reaction to points like yours below would be:
(1) severe bloat: by what definition? The core JAR size? The distribution
size? The API size? For that matter, if we're talking APIs, the normal
developer using Xerces, for example, should be concerned with public APIs
like SAX and DOM. Exactly how are these different from anyone else's SAX or
DOM interfaces?;
(2) old JDKs: not sure I understand this one. Support for old JDKs? Well,
like I said before, not every real world developer has access to a 1.2+ JDK.
And the mission of Apache is not to support J2EE specifically;
(3) Bad spec conformance: on what basis? Not keeping up with the latest
specs as fast as you might like? Or declaring that they conform to spec
A12.3, and not in fact doing so? There's a difference;
(4) Appalling speed: you can always find a stripped down little product that
blazes through problem X. I use nanoxml from time to time for specific
problems, and it's fast as hell - does that mean that Xerces is then bad
because it's slower on the same problem? And a number of Apache products are
acknowledged as being the fastest. If I know that you had a hate-on for
Tomcat it would help clarify the discussion; blanket statements are
exceedingly unhelpful;
(5) Some sort of strange developer arrogance: OK, this could use some
clarification. But I sure as hell haven't seen it.
There have been real problems associated with the donation of code and
people to Apache projects by big companies. Those problems doubtless led to
perceptions that I have heard here. Many of those perceptions are not
entirely wrong. These problems are being addressed.
There are a number of ways of productively influencing Apache software. All
of them entail becoming involved to some degree.
As for the list of stuff you mention, I've used some of them, too, and as
you know I'm interested in OpenSymphony. That list is a bit misleading -
Apache doesn't have a J2EE server project that I'm aware of, one of the JDOM
authors is in fact an ASF member, OpenSymphony doesn't have an Apache
counterpart, can't speak for the tags thing, and Saxon...well, hell, I like
Saxon better myself, but it's not free of bugs either. :-) Not sure I
understand the license reference, though.
Regards,
Arved Sandstrom
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Mike
Cannon-Brookes
Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2001 8:52 PM
To: Orion-Interest
Subject: RE: I switch from X to Orion because:
On another note (am I imagining things?) or isn't JDK2 _REQUIRED_ for J2EE ?
(Apache-folk: note the 2 in J2EE)
That tells me that Tomcat can never effectively be part of a true J2EE
server.
Other than that I agree with all that Victor has said.
Apache products suffer from
- severe bloat,
- old JDKs,
- bad spec conformance,
- appalling speed and
- some sort of strange developer arrogance
Why does everyone on the Apache project seem to think their products are
'the best' and cannot be beaten?! Sadly, 'tis not even close to true.
-mike (who uses Orion, Saxon, Jdom, Epesh.com tags and OpenSymphony - not
one released under the ASL and all rock)
