I'm trying to figure out what you mean by "version of for civilians". If you mean a non military version you are sort of correct. While the several versions of the full auto M16 don't have a civilian version there are plenty of semi-auto versions under other names produced by Armalite, Clot and others. Bushmaster even sells a bullpup version that takes all the same critical parts. And don't forget the semi-auto H-Bar precision target model. It still takes 20-40 round M16 magazines. On the subject of full-auto Class 3 weapons any law-biding, non-felony convicted American can get just about any full auto military firearm as long as you want to go through the background checks and pay all the money involve. Also the local police chief/sheriff where you reside has to approve and sign off that he will allow it to be stored in his jurisdiction. Some will and some won't. Getting in good with the local police is a good start before hand. I have friends who have M-60s, WWI/II British Vickers, Browning .30 Cal air and water-cooled, and German MG-34 light and medium machineguns. ATF and the local police know exactly where any legally owned full auto weapon is. The felony for an illegal one or even the parts to convert a semi-auto to full auto is a term from 10-20 years and only in rare cases do they impose less than 15 years. The husband of one of my former fellow employees owns a full military M-16. It was fine up here but when he moved to a new brokerage house and they sent him to North Carolina the local sheriff didn't want no "Yankee owned machinegun in his county" even though several of his local friends legally had some. So my friend had to store in it a secure location outside that county. By the time he evolved into a local "good ol' boy" he got sent back up to the Washington DC area and it didn't matter. Kent Gittings
-----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Bob Blakely Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2001 5:14 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: OT: Re: Australians I've tried to stay out of this OT thread, but the level of ignorance and of and paucity of rational thought is seriously getting to me. As to one previous poster who stated that the NRA produced ads with erroneous data concerning gun control in Australia, there was one such show 1/2 hour in length which contained an interview with Keith Tidswell of Australia's Sporting Shooters Association. the Australian government lodged an official complaint with the NRA demanding that they pull this misleading video. The NRA said, basically, "Screw you! We've researched the figures presented by Mr. Tidswell using your governments information and found them to be true. The interview is still available on the NRA site. As to your amazement that: > After the various massacres that have occurred (Dunblane, Port Arthur, > Columbine) it amazes me to think that anyone anywhere still believes it's Ok > for ordinary citizens to ordinarily possess weapons not necessary to their > trade (e.g. farmers with anti-vermin weapons, not M16's, AK47's or even M60's!). 1. No ordinary citizen of the United States has ever owned an M16's, AK47's or even M60's. Non fully automatic versions of M16's, AK47's are available in most states. M60's are not available. There is no version for civilians. I prefer the old M1 from WWII and the M1A (Civilian version of the M14) for national matches (Civilian Marksmanship Program, created by the U.S. Congress, http://www.odcmp.com/about_us.htm) - and for hunting. The felt recoil of a semi-automatic rifle is about half that of a bolt action version. Recoil on the M1A is also significantly reduced further by the flash suppressor. 2. Considering the fact that such aberrations as Dunblane, Port Arthur, Columbine are exceedingly rare, and that all such deaths over recorded history don't even begin to compare with the (comparable ages) death toll from automobiles, or swimming pools, cleaning chemicals under the sink or bicycles, etc. firearms are a comparatively safe household item. I say house hold item because there is something like 250 million firearms owned by 80 million civilians in approximately 40 million families in the US. Each year, approximately 150,000 folks are killed by physician and pharmaceutical error. Most of these folks were not involved in any life or limb threatening situation. This dwarfs folks killed in automobiles ~50,000 and those killed by firearms ~20,000. Presented for perspective... From: "John Coyle" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > I've stayed out of this one so far, but as a naturalised Australian born in > England I now gotta jump in! > Kent, the presumption of innocence also applies in both England and Australia - > the rule is that, in a jury trial, the jury must be satisfied 'beyond > reasonable doubt' of the guilt of the accused. It is only recently that some > offences can be tried with a majority verdict rule applying, also. > Incidentally, since the Americas were settled largely by the English and > French, you may find that the basis of your US law was that of English 18th > century law, modified after independence. > After the various massacres that have occurred (Dunblane, Port Arthur, > Columbine) it amazes me to think that anyone anywhere still believes it's Ok > for ordinary citizens to ordinarily possess weapons not necessary to their > trade (eg farmers with anti-vermin weapons, not M16's, AK47's or even M60's!). > I am not sure, either, that I don't prefer our police and security forces > having the right to fully investigate suspected terrorists without the > constraints of their so-called 'civil rights' having to be taken into account. > And we don't have legislation to allow a military court to summarily try and > execute suspects either! > > I promise this will be my only contribution to this OT thread! > > John Coyle > Brisbane, Australia > > > On Wednesday, December 12, 2001 12:36 AM, Kent Gittings [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > wrote: > > Coming from a freedom loving gun happy culture like America I was wondering > > how the average Aussie perceives the latest police regs I saw posted from > > Australia. Seems to me here at least we would be up in arms if our > > government was given the police powers that yours are given. I realize a lot > > of it is based on English law (guilty until proven innocent) and not > > American law (innocent until proven guilty). > > Over here bumper stickers are a big form of political/social comment. In > > this realm a common one goes: > > "A man with a gun is a citizen" > > "A man without a gun is a subject" > > Kent Gittings > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Kevin Waterson > > Sent: Monday, December 10, 2001 7:21 PM > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: Re: OT: Re: Australians > > > > > > Paul Jones wrote: > > > > > > > > I think that referendum for a republic was defeated due to the proposed > > > system that was put forward, not because we didnt want to become a > > republic. > > > > Yes, this was also played a big part in it. > > The republic model put forward was very wanting in democratic process. > > > > > Its kinda interesting to see how some people from other countries persieve > > > us. > > > > I am an Australian, I live in Byron Bay > > > > Kevin - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. 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