#1. The only real sources acceptable for proof or disproof are source data
(by you or me).
#2. Your biased sources are no better than my biased sources.
#3. Political sources are most often more biased than lobby groups (either
way).
#4. a. The issue is not homicide using firearms, it's homicide. The victims
don't care how they were killed.
b. The issue is not violent crime using firearms, it's violent crime.
The victims results are the same.
c. The issue is not how many were killed at once. Whether they died
alone or in company is irrelevant to the victims.
#5. Perhaps Australians are a peaceable people who somehow are transferred
into raving murders when in the presence of a firearm and return to their
placid, peaceable existence when the firearm is removed. If this is the
case, fine, but I see you as generally responsible even if you don't.
#6. Whether it is incorrect or not I'll use the number of 11,000 firearm
related murders in the US per year. (This is probably the 1998 figure as it
is the one most commonly available. The figure for 1999 was estimated at
~9800 and the number for 2000 is estimated to be smaller.)
This means that I have a 0.0000393 probability of being murdered by a
firearm in any given year. If my life expectancy were 90 years, my probably
of being murdered in a firearm related incident is 0.00353. There are 26
people in my extended family. If they all have a life expectancy were 90
years, then the probably of anyone in my (or anyone's) family being murdered
in a firearm related incident is 0.0878. This is more than acceptable to me
if the alternative is the loss of a liberty to 1/3 of our population.
Those numbers are based purely on random number statistics. The truth is
that the probability of being murdered by a firearm relates to your
activities. More than 3/4 of murders here are those in gangs and drugs. I am
not involved in gangs or drugs. The rough probabilities for 2750 of these
murders by a firearm are then 0.0000098, 0.00088 and 0.023. None of my
family is involved in any other questionable activities, and this reduces
the probabilities even further. Neither I, nor anyone in my extended family
has been the victim of a firearm related incident, nor has anyone I know.
This is despite the fact that we _all_ own them and our families always
have.
Now if you tell me that by eliminating guns that you could reduce this rate
to 0.003, well then, I am not impressed given what I and my fellow
countrymen had to give up for it.
Liberty is not about what you like not being curtailed or banned. Liberty is
about choice and having it whether you exercise it or not. Liberty is not
about the selfish notion of protecting what you enjoy and to hell with
others and what they enjoy. Liberty is not free. All liberty comes at a
cost. This cost is not just some price paid by some soldiers in any number
of wars past. The cost of all liberty is paid as it is exercised. Is your
speech free? Many are harmed for life and some die because this liberty is
carelessly, and irresponsibility exercised. The same is true of the liberty
of the press. Due process afforded criminals allows some to be set free due
to carelessness of police or prosecutors and as a result more victims
accumulate. Nevertheless, we count the cost of these liberties to be
acceptable. Driving an auto is a privilege, not a right, nevertheless we
count the cost of 50,000 lives a year as acceptable. Of course we want to
reduce the cost, but in the mean time we accept the cost.
If a liberty is to removed from any citizenry, I for one, expect it just and
fair for those taking away the liberty to give an account of an actual,
quantifiable benefit to be received. Further, if they do not deliver, I
would want the liberty to be restored. Restoration is always unlikely,
however. At no time in history has any liberty ever been restored to a
people by any government. All governments accumulate laws thereby
restricting the liberty of it's people. In time, politicians cease to serve
the people and the people begin to serve the politicians. The process is not
generally reversible. Liberty is only restored by an entirely different
government.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Anthony Farr" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2001 6:46 AM
Subject: Re: OT: Re: Australians
> The "previous poster" was me, and I take exception to your reference to
> "the level of ignorance and of and paucity of rational thought" (sic).
> FYI have a look at:
> http://www.csmonitor.com/durable/2000/03/24/p7s2.htm
> and
> http://www.bradycampaign.org/facts/issuebriefs/australia.asp
> as well as
> http://www.salon.com/politics2000/feature/2000/04/03/nra/
> where the NRA lies are disproved. Or do as I did and type Australia+NRA
> into your favourite search engine.
>
> "There are many things that Australia can learn from the United States.
> How to manage firearm ownership is not one of them," Australia's
> attorney general, Daryl Williams said in 2000.
>
> BTW, Keith Tidswell is a stooge of the NRA, thus there is no
> journalistic legitimacy in their interview of him.
>
> HAR!
>
> Regards,
> Anthony Farr
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bob Blakely" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>
> > I've tried to stay out of this OT thread, but the level of ignorance
> and of
> > and paucity of rational thought is seriously getting to me. As to one
> > previous poster who stated that the NRA produced ads with erroneous
> data
> > concerning gun control in Australia, there was one such show 1/2 hour
> in
> > length which contained an interview with Keith Tidswell of Australia's
> > Sporting Shooters Association. the Australian government lodged an
> official
> > complaint with the NRA demanding that they pull this misleading video.
> The
> > NRA said, basically, "Screw you! We've researched the figures
> presented by
> > Mr. Tidswell using your governments information and found them to be
> true.
> > The interview is still available on the NRA site.
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