Jon A, John C, List, Jon wrote:
I have every reason to suppose triadic relations are the very fabric of the universe, and for all I know every triadic relation has the potential to serve as a sign relation in one measure or another. I would tend strongly to agree. JA: In this view triadic relations do not evolve from lower species but are present from the beginning. So I do not believe symbols emerge from icons and indices so much as icons and indices devolve from their geI suspect you are right, Jon. Jon S and I have argued for this approach (3ns as ur-Continuity present in the earliest cosmos, i.e., pre-Big Bang so to speak) as Peirce considers it in the final lecture of 1898 RLT in the famous 'Blackboard' metaphor. John C, who wrote that he suspects Jon S is correct in this matter of triadic relations being 'there' from the get-go, added: JC: I think this means that you would disagree with Terry Deacon’s approach, which starts with icons and has the rest evolve. I'm not sure I read Deacon exactly that way. While I found problems with his first book, *The Symbolic Species*, and discussed some of these problems (including this 'starting with icons') with him after a talk he gave at ICCS U. of Alabama, Huntsville, a number of years ago, I don't see his repeating those same errors in *Incomplete Nature*. However, I'm away from my desk and do not have the book with me at the moment. However, what I think you may be pointing to, John, is suggested by this comment by Deacon (reproduced in a review of the book by Robert Logan--all quotations below are from this long review and precis. See: file:///C:/Users/Gary/Downloads/information-03-00290%20(1).pdf) The core hypothesis of this book is that all teleodynamic phenomena necessarily depend upon, and emerge from, simpler morphodynamic and homeodynamic [i.e., thermodynamic] processes (p. 487). What Logan calls Deacon's 'triality' (as opposed to 'duality') takes the following form of levels built upon levels: RL: Each level of interaction gives rise to a different set of properties or behaviors of matter and hence I suggest that if Deacon is right (and I believe he is) then we are possibly dealing with property “triality” not property duality, with three distinct property domains of matter, namely, (1) the thermodynamic dissipation of order as exemplified by an ideal gas; (2) inanimate, non-self-maintaining self-organization (or morphodynamics) as exemplified by crystal formation and Bénard cells; (3) self-organizing and self-maintaining systems as exemplified by all living teleodynamic organisms. But with Deacon's concerns in this book we are very far from "the get go" at this point in the evolution of the cosmos, nor is he dealing directly with semiosis, icons, indices, symbols and the rest. While even Peirce (this in reference to (2) above) for example, saw even crystal formation as a triadic process. Still, I will want to re-read parts of *Incomplete Nature *to see if Deacon writes specifically of an iconic basis for all that follow. So thanks for the hint, John. Perhas, as does Logan, what I admire most about Deacon's book is its emphasis on the need for a return to values in science. As Logan writes: As Deacon points out despite all the achievements of science to understand our physical universe science has "at the same time conceived the realm of value as radically alienated from this seeming complete understanding of the fabric of existence …. The removal of any approach to value from a scientific perspective is the ultimate expression of having accepted the presumed necessity of that elective surgery" (p. 544). Best, Gary R [image: Gary Richmond] *Gary Richmond* *Philosophy and Critical Thinking* *Communication Studies* *LaGuardia College of the City University of New York* *C 745* *718 482-5690* On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 10:36 PM, John Collier <colli...@ukzn.ac.za> wrote: > I suspect you are right, Jon. I think this means that you would disagree > with Terry Deacon’s approach, which starts with icons and has the rest > evolve. Perhaps the origin of the first third *is* the beginning. Nothing > is outside of that. That would be a bit like some gnostic views. > > > > Best, > > John > > > > *From:* Jon Awbrey [mailto:jawb...@att.net] > *Sent:* Wednesday, 19 April 2017 7:00 PM > *To:* Gary Richmond <gary.richm...@gmail.com> > *Cc:* Peirce-L <peirce-l@list.iupui.edu> > *Subject:* [PEIRCE-L] Re: Triadic forms of constraint, determination, and > interaction > > > > Gary, all ... > > > > I have every reason to suppose triadic relations are the very fabric of > the universe, and for all I know every triadic relation has the potential > to serve as a sign relation in one measure or another. > > > > In this view triadic relations do not evolve from lower species but are > present from the beginning. So I do not believe symbols emerge from icons > and indices so much as icons and indices devolve from their generic > precursors in the triadic matrix. > > > > Regards, > > > > Jon > > http://inquiryintoinquiry.com > > > On Apr 19, 2017, at 6:22 PM, Gary Richmond <gary.richm...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > Jon, List, > > > > Nice post, and rereading it, quite hlepfull. However, I don't think that a > consideration of sets and subsets fully does the trick. Or rather, it may > for mathematics, but it does not do so sufficiently for semiotics, at least > in my opinion. > > > > So the notion of 'constraints' has got to be fleshed out much further for > semiotics. I earlier commented on the richness and originality of Terrence > Deacon's *Incomplete Nature: How Mind Emerged from Matter.* For Deacon > constraints are seen in relation to what is absent, much like the hub of a > wheel is a hole which yet allows for its functioning (as a student of the > Tao, I know that this is no news to you!). > > > > More importantly for one of the key ideas of his book is that those > constraints which bring about emergent processes are in their nature more > complex than the constituents of a process because the complexity of such > absential constraints is tied to their not being physical things: take away > the spokes and the tire and the hub just disappears. > > > > Gary Furhman has done some interesting work as well in consideration of > the organizing power of constraints in his book, *Turning > Signs http://gnusystems.ca/TS/TWindex.htm > <http://gnusystems.ca/TS/TWindex.htm>*, a work which I've highly > recommended in the past and have been recently re-reading parts of, esp. > it's penultimate Chapter 18, which Gary referred to recently in another > thread. (I should note that for both authors discussions of * constraint* > include but go beyond semeiotic science, although perhaps not beyond > semiosis itself.) > > > > In the light of thinking about constraints, I especially liked this > comment in your message as to the complexity added in consideration of what > you termed "mutual constraints": > > > > JA: There are by the way such things as mutual constraints, indeed, > > they are very common, and not just in matters of human bondage. > > So, for instance, the fact that objects constrain or determine > > signs in a given sign relation does not exclude the possibility > > that signs constrain or determine objects in that sign relation. > > > > I think that this is quite true, and that much more could be said > regardomg it. Fuhrman, referring to an earlier book by Deacon, *The > Symbolic Species: The Co-evolution of Language and the Brain*, gives an > example of such mutual constraints in this sniippet. > > > > As *Deacon* (1997) points out, languages have adapted to human use. ‘The > brain has co-evolved with respect to language, but languages have done most > of the adapting’ (122) in Fuhrman, *Turning Signs*, Chapter 13. > > > > Best, > > > > Gary R > > > > > > > [image: Gary Richmond] > > > > *Gary Richmond* > > *Philosophy and Critical Thinking* > > *Communication Studies* > > *LaGuardia College of the City University of New York* > > *C 745* > > *718 482-5690 <(718)%20482-5690>* > > > > On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 5:12 PM, Jon Awbrey <jawb...@att.net> wrote: > > Gary, > > Here's one way of stating what I call a constraint: > > • The set L is constrained to a subset of the set M. > > Here's one way of stating a triadic constraint: > > • The set L is a subset of the cartesian product X × Y × Z. > > So any way we choose to define a triadic relation > we are stating or imposing a triadic constraint. > > In particular, any way we choose to define a sign relation > we are stating or imposing a triadic constraint of the form: > > • L ⊆ O × S × I > > where: > O is the set of all objects under discussion, > S is the set of all signs under discussion, and > I is the set of all interpretant signs under discussion. > > The concepts of constraint, definition, determination, > lawfulness, ruliness, and so on all have their basis > in the idea that one set is a subset of another set. > > Among the next questions that will occur to us, we might ask: > > • What bearings do these types of global constraints > have on various local settings we might select? > > And conversely: > > • To what extent do various types of local constraints combine > to constrain or determine various types of global constraint? > > There are by the way such things as mutual constraints, indeed, > they are very common, and not just in matters of human bondage. > So, for instance, the fact that objects constrain or determine > signs in a given sign relation does not exclude the possibility > that signs constrain or determine objects in that sign relation. > > Time for Tacos! > > Jon > > On 4/19/2017 3:57 PM, Gary Richmond wrote: > > Jon A, List, > > I'd written: "... it would seem that what may very well be needed, > then, is our unpacking the "triadic forms of constraint, determination, > and interaction that are not captured by S-R chains." > > I read through your links on 'determination' and, while interesting in > their own right, I didn't find anything that helped in this matter of > getting a better grasp of specifically "*triadic forms* of constraint, > determination, and interaction. . ." > > As to what Peirce means by 'Object' in the context of semiosis, while I > think that his positing two Objects, the Immediate and the Dynamic, add a > necessary complexity to the notion of Object, that many, perhaps most > Peircean semioticians are clear enough on this, thus, for example,allowing > Dynamic Objects to be members of any of the three Universes of Experience.. > However, how these Objects function in relation to the various forms of the > three Interpretants he also offers late in his career has probably not been > sufficiently clarified. > > Best, > > Gary Rr > > [image: Gary Richmond] > > *Gary Richmond* > *Philosophy and Critical Thinking* > *Communication Studies* > *LaGuardia College of the City University of New York* > *C 745* > *718 482-5690* > > > > On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 1:05 PM, Jon Awbrey <jawb...@att.net> wrote: > > Gary, all ... > > I'm not sure I have the leisure or stamina to run through > these issues one more time, and I begin to suspect there > may be some deeper-lying issues that would have to be > resolved before any kind of communication could occur. > > I'm thinking I may go back to my initial subject line, > as the “failure to communicate” in this setting seems > to have more to do with the full pragmatic meaning of > the word “object” and its being such poor echo of the > Greek “pragma”. > > At any rate, I re-posted an old post under a separate heading > with lots o' links to earlier discussions and relevant readings > on the subject of determination, just in case. > > Regards, > > Jon > > On 4/16/2017 7:30 PM, Gary Richmond wrote: > > Jon A, List, > > Jon A wrote: > > People will continue to be confused about determination > > so long as they can think of no other forms of it but the > behaviorist-causal-dyadic-temporal, object-as-stimulus and > sign-as-response variety. It is true that ordinary language > biases us toward billiard-ball styles of dyadic determination, > but there are triadic forms of constraint, determination, and > interaction that are not captured by S-R chains of that order. > A pragmatic-semiotic object is anything we talk or think about, > and semiosis does not conduct its transactions within the bounds > of object as cue, sign as cue ball, and interpretants as solids, > stripes, or pockets. > > > > I agree. This is one of the reasons why some here--including me--have > argued against the input-mediation-output model of semiosis which, in my > understanding, is an example of the causal-dyadic variety of determination > which does not capture triadic 'determination'. > > So it would seem that what may very well be needed, then, is our unpacking > the "triadic forms of constraint, determination, and interaction that are > not captured by S-R chains." > > Terrence Deacon's *Incomplete Nature *makes a stab at this in the context > of 'emergence' theory, but his challenging theory requires s number of new > concepts employing neologisms which take some work in getting ones mind > around. Nonetheless, one can say that central to his theory is that > certain > 'absential' constraints (determinations and interactions) are at least as > important as the causal-dyadic forms which physical properties take in > consideration of self-organizing systems. (Gary F. and I tried discussing > some of Deacon's theory in this forum, but this didn't go very far at the > time, for reasons just noted.) > > This topic seems to me of some considerable importance and > scientific-philosophical potential value and why I changed the name of > this > thread. > > Best, > > Gary R > > [image: Gary Richmond] > > *Gary Richmond* > *Philosophy and Critical Thinking* > *Communication Studies* > *LaGuardia College of the City University of New York* > *C 745* > *718 482-5690 <(718)%20482-5690>* > > On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 6:25 PM, Jon Awbrey <jawb...@att.net> wrote: > > | “No longer wondered what I would do in life but defined my object.” > > | > | — C.S. Peirce (1861), “My Life, written for the Class-Book”, (CE 1, 3) > | > https://inquiryintoinquiry.com/2016/03/16/abduction-deductio > n-induction-analogy-inquiry-17/ > > | The object of reasoning is to find out, > | from the consideration of what we already know, > | something else which we do not know. > | > http://www.peirce.org/writings/p107.html > > If the object of an investigation is > to find out something we did not know > then the clues and evidence discovered > are the signs that determine that object. > > We've been through this so many times before that I hesitate ... > but what the hecuba ... one more time for good measure ... > > People will continue to be confused about determination > so long as they can think of no other forms of it but the > behaviorist-causal-dyadic-temporal, object-as-stimulus and > sign-as-response variety. It is true that ordinary language > biases us toward billiard-ball styles of dyadic determination, > but there are triadic forms of constraint, determination, and > interaction that are not captured by S-R chains of that order. > A pragmatic-semiotic object is anything we talk or think about, > and semiosis does not conduct its transactions within the bounds > of object as cue, sign as cue ball, and interpretants as solids, > stripes, or pockets. > > Regards, > > Jon > > > -- > > inquiry into inquiry: https://inquiryintoinquiry.com/ > academia: https://independent.academia.edu/JonAwbrey > oeiswiki: https://www.oeis.org/wiki/User:Jon_Awbrey > isw: http://intersci.ss.uci.edu/wiki/index.php/JLA > facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/JonnyCache > > > >
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