Mike, list I’d define energy as 1ns, with matter being 2ns, and information as these units of 2ns defined within 3ns.
By ‘indexicality of locality, I mean that matter functions only within relations with other matter . That is, there is no such thing as an entity/unit//Sign, that is isolate. Everything is networked and in relationship with other enities/units//Signs - and thus, is local in real spatial and temporal terms. I think that is part of Stjernfelt’s argument on the Dicisign which rejects linguistic and psychological factors in the formation of a Sign [triad] and focuses on the physical, or indexical connection. I don’t reference my papers here, but, I can send you a recent one on ‘Peircean Semiosis as the transformation of Eerngy and Matter’. [If I can find it - I’m very sloppy with storing papers - both hard copies and online]. Edwina > On Feb 12, 2024, at 12:53 PM, Mike Bergman <m...@mkbergman.com> wrote: > > Hi Edwina, Helmut, List, > > I would like to hear you expand, Edwina, on what you mean about the > 'idexicality of locality'. And, speaking of entropy, here is another possible > link to the universal categories. > > flash (of light) [1ns] - energy [2ns] - information [3ns] > > I've been toying with this thought for quite a few years. Peirce's cosmogony > begins with a flash (significantly a reference to light). I don't know if > 'flash' is the right analog in Firstness, since both quantum mechanics and > the nature of energy can arguably be better traced to the ideas of harmonic > oscillators. Still, there is something pregnant in that nexus . . . . > > For decades there has been confusion and controversy about entropy in the > sense of thermodynamics and its relation to Shannon (information) entropy. It > strikes me that recasting these in terms of Peircean Secondness (energy) and > Thirdness (information) brings sense to the conundrum. Both apply; it is more > a matter of contextual interpretation. > > What say the list? > > Thanks! > > Best, Mike > > On 2/12/2024 11:31 AM, Edwina Taborsky wrote: >> Helmut - I agree with your outline, where the three categories are operative >> within continuity. But what is continuity? >> >> I consider it as the basic ‘force’ of the universe to ‘exist as signs [ ie >> discrete entities]. , This force, which Peirce variously called Mind, >> Nature, God, means that the energy that IS the universe functions as a >> ‘rational action’ [ie Mind] by constantly transforming itself into ever more >> complex networked discreteness, operative within evolving >> habits-of-formation [and chance!]. There is no final perfection, because of >> the realities of both 2ns and 1ns which introduce freedom and variation and, >> importantly, the indexicality of locality. >> >> If we consider the basic identity of the universe as E=MC2 [ and I think we >> have to accept this!] then it can be understood that Energy is transforming >> into Matter — within a rational, networked, ordered manner - to prevent, as >> Michael pointed out, thermodynamic entropy. It is this >> ‘force-of-transformation’ that I consider as the definition of ‘continuity. >> After all - without it - thermodynamics, as Michael pointed out, jumps >> in..and…. >> >> Edwina >> >>> On Feb 12, 2024, at 12:01 PM, Helmut Raulien <h.raul...@gmx.de> >>> <mailto:h.raul...@gmx.de> wrote: >>> >>> >>> List, I think, we can prescind discreteness from continuity, e.g. by >>> supposing the formation of attractors, or coagulation, or reentry (logical >>> or actual loops), but we cannot prescind continuity from discreteness. So >>> everything including thirdness is at first based on continuity, even if it >>> requires discreteness. I think, that thirdness requires discreteness, >>> because a relation as part of structure, and a habit too, can and has to be >>> prescinded (or discriminated, or dissociated) as something discrete from >>> continuity, to logically handle it. >>> >>> Best, Helmut >>> >>> Gesendet: Montag, 12. Februar 2024 um 03:07 Uhr >>> Von: "Edwina Taborsky" <tabor...@primus.ca> <mailto:tabor...@primus.ca> >>> An: "Peirce-L" <peirce-l@list.iupui.edu> <mailto:peirce-l@list.iupui.edu> >>> Cc: "Edwina Taborsky" <edwina.tabor...@gmail.com> >>> <mailto:edwina.tabor...@gmail.com> >>> Betreff: Re: [PEIRCE-L] The Proper Way in Logic (was Peirce's Ongoing >>> Semiotic Project) >>> List- I don’t see synergism as equivalent to Thirdness, for Thirdness is >>> the establishment of habits, ie, habitual ‘modes of being’ - which habits >>> are established by and within the universe in conjunction with the modes of >>> both Firstness and Secondness. . >>> >>> Instead, synergism, or continuity, seems to me, more akin to the concept of >>> free energy…the genuinely general, so to speak - and this free energy is >>> the basis of our universe> “Continuity is nothing but perfect generality of >>> a law of relationship” 6.170. See also his outline of ’The Logic of th >>> Universe 6.189, where, again, continuity is understood as ‘generality’. >>> This is not the same as the general laws of Thirdness which are generated >>> within and by the universe for the maintenance of its reality as material >>> exiistentiality. >>> >>> As he writes, the universe, made up of Secondness or discrete entities, >>> began ‘in the utter vagueness of completely undetermined and dimensionless >>> potentiality” 6.193. This, to me, is not Thirdness. It is free energy. >>> ..which I see as continuity/synechism. >>> >>> Jerry- I’m sorry, but you’ve lost me - I’ve no idea what you are referring >>> to . >>> >>> Edwina >>> >>> >>> >>> Again, my understanding of this is that >>> On Feb 11, 2024, at 8:41 PM, Jon Alan Schmidt <jonalanschm...@gmail.com> >>> <mailto:jonalanschm...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> Mike: >>> >>> I do not know what you mean by "penultimate" in this context. As I have >>> said on the List many times before, as well as in my published work, my >>> understanding of synechism as applied in metaphysics is that the entire >>> universe is an inexhaustible continuum (3ns) of indefinite possibilities >>> (1ns), some of which are actualized (2ns). Again, discrete things and their >>> dyadic reactions, as well as monadic qualities and their inherence in >>> discrete things, are degenerate outcomes of continuous and triadic semiosis. >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Jon >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Feb 11, 2024 at 5:15 PM Mike Bergman <m...@mkbergman.com >>> <mailto:m...@mkbergman.com>> wrote: >>>> Hi Jon, >>>> >>>> To quibble, I see synechism and its great definer of continuity as the >>>> guiding principle of Thirdness (as I think Peirce did, too). It can't be >>>> elevated to the penultimate, because our operative world also requires the >>>> discrete and discontinuous. (Enter 2nd law of thermodynamics stage left.) >>>> >>>> Best, Mike >>>> >>>> On 2/11/2024 5:03 PM, Jon Alan Schmidt wrote: >>>> Mike: >>>> >>>> I am glad that we agree on that point. I also agree that it is a mistake >>>> to treat semiosis as the most fundamental aspect of Peirce's philosophy, >>>> and that his three universal categories--firmly grounded in both the >>>> hypothetical science of mathematics and the primal positive science of >>>> phaneroscopy--are even more central, especially as an organizing principle. >>>> >>>> However, Peirce's preference to call his overall system of thought >>>> synechism suggests that he regarded "continuity as an idea of prime >>>> importance in philosophy" (CP 6.103, EP 1:313, 1892)--especially since he >>>> also stated, "I carry the doctrine so far as to maintain that continuity >>>> governs the whole domain of experience in every element of it" (CP 7.566, >>>> EP 2:1, 1893). This has implications for semiosis as I have already >>>> outlined, as well as the categories--1ns is prescinded from 2ns and 3ns, >>>> and 2ns is prescinded from 3ns; but 2ns cannot be built up from 1ns, and >>>> 3ns cannot be built up from 1ns and 2ns. >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> >>>> Jon Alan Schmidt - Olathe, Kansas, USA >>>> Structural Engineer, Synechist Philosopher, Lutheran Christian >>>> www.LinkedIn.com/in/JonAlanSchmidt >>>> <http://www.linkedin.com/in/JonAlanSchmidt> / twitter.com/JonAlanSchmidt >>>> <http://twitter.com/JonAlanSchmidt> >>>> On Sun, Feb 11, 2024 at 3:13 PM Mike Bergman <m...@mkbergman.com >>>> <mailto:m...@mkbergman.com>> wrote: >>>>> Hi Jon, >>>>> >>>>> Here is a point with which I have vehement agreement with you (dare I say >>>>> I suspect Edwina does as well): >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> What I can say is that I obviously disagree with anyone who confines >>>>> semiosis to the biological realm, since I maintain with Peirce that the >>>>> entire universe is "a vast representamen" that is "perfused with signs, >>>>> if it is not composed exclusively of signs." >>>>> Further keys to this assertion are found in Peirce's writings on >>>>> evolution, emergence, cosmogony, and his anticipation of the quantum vs >>>>> the classical. These are a focus of my current studies. >>>>> One of the bones I have to pick with many scholars of semiosis is their >>>>> too literal restriction to human signs and perhaps even elevating >>>>> semiosis as a Peircean thesis first among others. I have found the >>>>> universal categories to be a more robust grounding to generalize to the >>>>> entirety of Nature and its manifestations. >>>>> >>>>> Best, Mike >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> __________________________________________ >>>> >>>> Michael K. Bergman >>>> 319.621.5225 >>>> http://mkbergman.com <http://mkbergman.com/> >>>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/mkbergman >>>> __________________________________________ >>>> _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ >>>> ARISBE: THE PEIRCE GATEWAY is now at >>>> https://cspeirce.com <https://cspeirce.com/> and, just as well, at >>>> https://www.cspeirce.com <https://www.cspeirce.com/> . It'll take a while >>>> to repair / update all the links! >>>> ► PEIRCE-L subscribers: Click on "Reply List" or "Reply All" to REPLY ON >>>> PEIRCE-L to this message. PEIRCE-L posts should go to >>>> peirce-L@list.iupui.edu <mailto:peirce-L@list.iupui.edu> . >>>> ► To UNSUBSCRIBE, send a message NOT to PEIRCE-L but to >>>> l...@list.iupui.edu <mailto:l...@list.iupui.edu> with UNSUBSCRIBE PEIRCE-L >>>> in the SUBJECT LINE of the message and nothing in the body. More at >>>> https://list.iupui.edu/sympa/help/user-signoff.html . >>>> ► PEIRCE-L is owned by THE PEIRCE GROUP; moderated by Gary Richmond; and >>>> co-managed by him and Ben Udell. >>> _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ >>> ARISBE: THE PEIRCE GATEWAY is now at >>> https://cspeirce.com <https://cspeirce.com/> and, just as well, at >>> https://www.cspeirce.com <https://www.cspeirce.com/> . It'll take a while >>> to repair / update all the links! >>> ► PEIRCE-L subscribers: Click on "Reply List" or "Reply All" to REPLY ON >>> PEIRCE-L to this message. PEIRCE-L posts should go to >>> peirce-L@list.iupui.edu <mailto:peirce-L@list.iupui.edu> . >>> ► To UNSUBSCRIBE, send a message NOT to PEIRCE-L but to l...@list.iupui.edu >>> <mailto:l...@list.iupui.edu> with UNSUBSCRIBE PEIRCE-L in the SUBJECT LINE >>> of the message and nothing in the body. More at >>> https://list.iupui.edu/sympa/help/user-signoff.html . >>> ► PEIRCE-L is owned by THE PEIRCE GROUP; moderated by Gary Richmond; and >>> co-managed by him and Ben Udell. >>> _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ ARISBE: THE PEIRCE GATEWAY is now at >>> https://cspeirce.com <https://cspeirce.com/> and, just as well, at >>> https://www.cspeirce.com <https://www.cspeirce.com/> . It'll take a while >>> to repair / update all the links! ► PEIRCE-L subscribers: Click on "Reply >>> List" or "Reply All" to REPLY ON PEIRCE-L to this message. PEIRCE-L posts >>> should go to peirce-L@list.iupui.edu <mailto:peirce-L@list.iupui.edu> . ► >>> To UNSUBSCRIBE, send a message NOT to PEIRCE-L but to l...@list.iupui.edu >>> <mailto:l...@list.iupui.edu> with UNSUBSCRIBE PEIRCE-L in the SUBJECT LINE >>> of the message and nothing in the body. More at >>> https://list.iupui.edu/sympa/help/user-signoff.html . ► PEIRCE-L is owned >>> by THE PEIRCE GROUP; moderated by Gary Richmond; and co-managed by him and >>> Ben Udell. >> >> >> >> _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ >> ARISBE: THE PEIRCE GATEWAY is now at >> https://cspeirce.com <https://cspeirce.com/> and, just as well, at >> https://www.cspeirce.com <https://www.cspeirce.com/> . It'll take a while >> to repair / update all the links! >> ► PEIRCE-L subscribers: Click on "Reply List" or "Reply All" to REPLY ON >> PEIRCE-L to this message. PEIRCE-L posts should go to >> peirce-L@list.iupui.edu <mailto:peirce-L@list.iupui.edu> . >> ► To UNSUBSCRIBE, send a message NOT to PEIRCE-L but to l...@list.iupui.edu >> <mailto:l...@list.iupui.edu> with UNSUBSCRIBE PEIRCE-L in the SUBJECT LINE >> of the message and nothing in the body. More at >> https://list.iupui.edu/sympa/help/user-signoff.html . >> ► PEIRCE-L is owned by THE PEIRCE GROUP; moderated by Gary Richmond; and >> co-managed by him and Ben Udell. > -- > __________________________________________ > > Michael K. Bergman > 319.621.5225 > http://mkbergman.com <http://mkbergman.com/> > http://www.linkedin.com/in/mkbergman > __________________________________________ > _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ > ARISBE: THE PEIRCE GATEWAY is now at > https://cspeirce.com and, just as well, at > https://www.cspeirce.com . It'll take a while to repair / update all the > links! > ► PEIRCE-L subscribers: Click on "Reply List" or "Reply All" to REPLY ON > PEIRCE-L to this message. PEIRCE-L posts should go to peirce-L@list.iupui.edu > . > ► To UNSUBSCRIBE, send a message NOT to PEIRCE-L but to l...@list.iupui.edu > with UNSUBSCRIBE PEIRCE-L in the SUBJECT LINE of the message and nothing in > the body. More at https://list.iupui.edu/sympa/help/user-signoff.html . > ► PEIRCE-L is owned by THE PEIRCE GROUP; moderated by Gary Richmond; and > co-managed by him and Ben Udell.
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