raghu: >>> The Democratic Party after all, did deliver the New Deal and Civil >>> Rights - achievements that are still substantially intact even after >>> the setbacks of the last 30 years.
me: >> The DP implemented the New Deal and Civil Rights, but only because >> mass popular movements pressured them to do so, as did social >> disorder. raghu: > So what? The point is the mass popular movements were able to use the > DP as a vehicle for change. The DP also used them, limiting, shaping, and undermining them. Often, by making leaders of mass movements part of the DP apparatus, they weaken those movements. > If they had Obama instead of FDR do you > think the New Deal would have happened? Obama would be different if there were mass pressure on the state, just as FDR himself changed as that pressure changed. I think that it's a mistake to focus on a politician's personality alone, if that's what you're doing here. me: >> The DP leadership also carefully limited and shaped the New >> Deal and Civil Rights to make sure that they didn't hurt vested >> interests (unless absolutely necessary) and didn't make the mass >> popular movements stronger. > You can always tell a version of this story where any progressive step > short of revolution can be interpreted as really being in the > long-term interests of the elite.... This is not an accurate description of my viewpoint (and I don't know where raghu got this from -- it wasn't from anything I've ever written on pen-l). I didn't say anything about "the long-term interests of the elite." Among other things, the elite often doesn't know what those interests are. They don't know what's "functional" for the continued expanded reproduction of the system. Elite decision-making reflects not only pressure from outside from social movements, along with social and economic disorder but also pressure from insiders, both capitalists and non-capitalists. It also reflects the very incomplete view of the world that elite policy-makers have (given uncertainty about the future, etc.) and of course capitalist ideology, of whatever flavor is dominant at the time. In the current era, maintaining capitalist power is the primary element of that ideology, but neoliberal "let the market decide" plays a major role. This can be self-destructive: a similar ideology encouraged the Great Depression to occur. As I said above, the elite doesn't always know what's good for the capitalist class or for the capitalist system. -- Jim Devine / "As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; and as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality." -- Albert Einstein _______________________________________________ pen-l mailing list [email protected] https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
