Thanks for that. I *do* care, which is why I'm trying to actually use this stuff. Well said.
________________________________ From: [email protected] [[email protected]] on behalf of Benoit St-Jean [[email protected]] Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2012 8:59 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] 1.4 - better from Jenkins Before we even get to the details, we should make sure we all exchange on a polite and non agressive tone. That being said, I don't think Bill is whining. You never hear people who don't care. I don't give a damn about product X, environment Y and programming language Z. That's why I never complain (or whine) about X, Y or Z. On the other hand, that's why you'll hear me complain about Smalltalk, Pharo, mathematics and a few other topics. Why? Because I care! Saying stuff don't work shouldn't be perceived as an ad hominem attack. It just shows someone, somewhere, somehow had an interest to say it so it gets fixed. And please, no "if you're no happy why don't you fix it and contribute" answer... This is the kind of answer that made me walk away from Pharo at a certain point... If we can't take critics/bugs/suggestions/tickets/whatever without entering a "defensive mode", we won't get far. Let's keep it cool and remember that nobody forced anyone to use Pharo and read this mailing list and take the time to post. We're all here because we do care! ----------------- Benoit St-Jean Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero. (Albert Einstein) ________________________________ From: Dale Henrichs <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Thursday, February 9, 2012 8:33:20 PM Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] 1.4 - better from Jenkins Bill, The last time you complained about Metacello being broken I asked you for a stack trace and I have seen no stack trace, although I believe that you were able to confirm that Metacello worked fine until you loaded some of your own code into the system ... Here you are complaining again ... if you don't provide specifics, the issues cannot be resolved ... There are apparently a lot of moving parts in your system, so it takes great attention to detail to get such a system running smoothly. The fact that you don't provide specifics tells me that perhaps you are not paying attention to the details ... When you are porting to a new environment (for you) like Pharo 1.4, you should stop and isolate the FIRST ERROR that you encounter ... in a complicated system once an error occurs, all bets are off ... You MUST pay attention to details ... You state that you have a giant debug log ... so it sounds like you tried to keep moving forward in the face of initial errors...I say good luck with that approach! If you post a Metacello stack trace I can very likely tell you what went wrong, if you prefer to continue to whine and complain about Metacello without even attempting to help me characterize the issues, then I will leave you to your own devices and you can can complain about Metacello all you want --- I won't be paying attention any more:) Dale ----- Original Message ----- | From: "Wilhelm K Schwab" <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> | To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> | Sent: Thursday, February 9, 2012 4:26:27 PM | Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] 1.4 - better from Jenkins | | I think you might be right about loading the .mcz files. But I don't | have an expectation other than what has been said here many times: | that Metacello is the future. So far, I don't see it. | | Bill | | | ________________________________________ | From: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> | [[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>] on behalf of Yanni | Chiu [[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>] | Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2012 6:22 PM | To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> | Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] 1.4 - better from Jenkins | | On 09/02/12 5:39 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote: | > Sven, | > | > Fair enough, but the game plan is for people to use Metacello | > configurations to load what they need to build an image. I am | > attempting to do just that, and am reporting (rather negative so | > far) experience, with debug logs. | > | > Pharo's fault or not, something is broken. But if Pharo is going | > to send users into the current state of Metacello, the weather | > around the lighthouse is going to be grim. | > | > Interesting ideas about the package cache being damaged. Maybe the | > logs will reveal something?? | | You might want to check the package cache for 0-length .mcz files, | which | might happen when the server is down. | | When I upgrade to a new image version, I just start my build process | with the new image, and cross my fingers. If it fails, then I do it | manually with the build script in a workspace - select each | framework/package and "doIt". Sometimes I run the framework's tests, | after each step. | | I load all "community" code first, unless I have extensions to this | code. Sometimes I've had to upgrade to a newer version of the | framework, | if available. At other times, I had to create patches because I was | tracking the Pharo updates (so no fixed version was available yet). | | In extreme cases, I've had to generate the list of packages that | Metacello would load, then load each .mcz individually. | | Typically, I'd do "save image as" at various points, to be able to | get | back to the problem code, more quickly. | | I think you're pretty much following a similar process, except the | expectation that a Metacello configuration should just load without | problems on Pharo1.4-unstable is too optimistic. | | | |
