Of course you are right ... if one has nothing constructive to say, then one shouldn't say anything at all:)
Dale ----- Original Message ----- | From: "Benoit St-Jean" <[email protected]> | To: [email protected] | Sent: Thursday, February 9, 2012 5:59:40 PM | Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] 1.4 - better from Jenkins | | | | Before we even get to the details, we should make sure we all | exchange on a polite and non agressive tone. | | | That being said, I don't think Bill is whining. You never hear people | who don't care. I don't give a damn about product X, environment Y | and programming language Z. That's why I never complain (or whine) | about X, Y or Z. On the other hand, that's why you'll hear me | complain about Smalltalk, Pharo, mathematics and a few other topics. | Why? Because I care! | | | Saying stuff don't work shouldn't be perceived as an ad hominem | attack. It just shows someone, somewhere, somehow had an interest to | say it so it gets fixed. And please, no "if you're no happy why | don't you fix it and contribute" answer... This is the kind of | answer that made me walk away from Pharo at a certain point... | | | If we can't take critics/bugs/suggestions/tickets/whatever without | entering a "defensive mode", we won't get far. | | | Let's keep it cool and remember that nobody forced anyone to use | Pharo and read this mailing list and take the time to post. | | | We're all here because we do care! | | | ----------------- | Benoit St-Jean | Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean | A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero. | (Albert Einstein) | | | | | | | From: Dale Henrichs <[email protected]> | To: [email protected] | Sent: Thursday, February 9, 2012 8:33:20 PM | Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] 1.4 - better from Jenkins | | Bill, | | The last time you complained about Metacello being broken I asked you | for a stack trace and I have seen no stack trace, although I believe | that you were able to confirm that Metacello worked fine until you | loaded some of your own code into the system ... | | Here you are complaining again ... if you don't provide specifics, | the issues cannot be resolved ... | | There are apparently a lot of moving parts in your system, so it | takes great attention to detail to get such a system running | smoothly. The fact that you don't provide specifics tells me that | perhaps you are not paying attention to the details ... | | When you are porting to a new environment (for you) like Pharo 1.4, | you should stop and isolate the FIRST ERROR that you encounter ... | in a complicated system once an error occurs, all bets are off ... | You MUST pay attention to details ... | | You state that you have a giant debug log ... so it sounds like you | tried to keep moving forward in the face of initial errors...I say | good luck with that approach! | | If you post a Metacello stack trace I can very likely tell you what | went wrong, if you prefer to continue to whine and complain about | Metacello without even attempting to help me characterize the | issues, then I will leave you to your own devices and you can can | complain about Metacello all you want --- I won't be paying | attention any more:) | | Dale | | | ----- Original Message ----- | | From: "Wilhelm K Schwab" < [email protected] > | | To: [email protected] | | Sent: Thursday, February 9, 2012 4:26:27 PM | | Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] 1.4 - better from Jenkins | | | | I think you might be right about loading the .mcz files. But I | | don't | | have an expectation other than what has been said here many times: | | that Metacello is the future. So far, I don't see it. | | | | Bill | | | | | | ________________________________________ | | From: [email protected] | | [ [email protected] ] on behalf of Yanni | | Chiu [ [email protected] ] | | Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2012 6:22 PM | | To: [email protected] | | Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] 1.4 - better from Jenkins | | | | On 09/02/12 5:39 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote: | | > Sven, | | > | | > Fair enough, but the game plan is for people to use Metacello | | > configurations to load what they need to build an image. I am | | > attempting to do just that, and am reporting (rather negative so | | > far) experience, with debug logs. | | > | | > Pharo's fault or not, something is broken. But if Pharo is going | | > to send users into the current state of Metacello, the weather | | > around the lighthouse is going to be grim. | | > | | > Interesting ideas about the package cache being damaged. Maybe | | > the | | > logs will reveal something?? | | | | You might want to check the package cache for 0-length .mcz files, | | which | | might happen when the server is down. | | | | When I upgrade to a new image version, I just start my build | | process | | with the new image, and cross my fingers. If it fails, then I do it | | manually with the build script in a workspace - select each | | framework/package and "doIt". Sometimes I run the framework's | | tests, | | after each step. | | | | I load all "community" code first, unless I have extensions to this | | code. Sometimes I've had to upgrade to a newer version of the | | framework, | | if available. At other times, I had to create patches because I was | | tracking the Pharo updates (so no fixed version was available yet). | | | | In extreme cases, I've had to generate the list of packages that | | Metacello would load, then load each .mcz individually. | | | | Typically, I'd do "save image as" at various points, to be able to | | get | | back to the problem code, more quickly. | | | | I think you're pretty much following a similar process, except the | | expectation that a Metacello configuration should just load without | | problems on Pharo1.4-unstable is too optimistic. | | | | | | | | | | | |
