> On 25 Jan 2019, at 20:52, Torsten Bergmann <asta...@gmx.de> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> Maybe Pharo's switch to Tonel remind people now on Java or C# class files and
> thats why they ask for the "traditional editing”.
Nah, people talk about this time to time.
Tonel format is just a readable format that yes, cool be used to edit in text
files (but that was doable with chunk format too).
For all the rest, +1 :)
> But remember that Kent Beck once said: "I mean, source code in files; how
> quaint, how seventies!". Tonel is a readable storage format,
> you could have the source code even in a database (with an ENVY and STORE
> like approach)
>
> And ouch .... that video really hurts and I think it will be more disturbing
> than helpful especially to many newbees
> now trying to use their favourite text editor for Pharo coding instead of
> really learning about a very flexible IDE and workflow with
> browsing, interactively inspecting and refactorings.
>
> Abusing an external text editor is a slap in the face of anyone building good
> tooling support into Smalltalk over many years.
> I know Dimitris tried to help people (as often) - but I guess this video
> really gives a false impression and guides people the wrong way.
>
> Sorry - but I'm reminded on pictures like this:
>
>
> https://i1.wp.com/ecbiz168.inmotionhosting.com/~perfor21/performancemanagementcompanyblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/magnet-image-sws-one-no-border.gif
>
> Dont get me wrong: VisualStudio/VisualStudio Code, Eclipse, IntelliJ and
> others are nice, I use them too for other languages or tasks. Nicely done -
> but still
> too static. Often I wished only half of the money invested into such IDE's
> could have been spend on better Smalltalk tooling.
>
> Remember: once VisualAge for Java got a price as the first usuable Java IDE
> (when people used Notepad to write *.java files) - but underneath it was
> fully coded in Smalltalk and the Java debugger was the Smalltalk debugger
> running the java subset of bytecodes. At that time VisualAge for Smalltalk
> was the base for the full VisualAge series (VisualAge for Java, Visual Age
> for C++ and others).
>
> But Smalltalk at that time unfortunately was expensive, licensing a problem
> and big vendors had to prove one can do deliver similar things with Java too
> - leading
> to Eclipse and others. But the best part on Eclipse was not Java - it was the
> pluggability concept. The extension point mechanisms of the platform provide
> a clear separation leading to a nice ecosystem of available plugins - but
> still it is hard to write and debug a custom extension.
>
> A Smalltalk environment is still more dynamic, more lively where you can
> browse, inspect and adjust nearly anything. And yes - you can even shoot
> yourself in the foot.
> And yes we know Pharo does not provide fancy widgets yet or latest text
> editing features - but this is a tribute to community resources.
>
> From my experience: if one free's his mind and gives up traditional
> programming habits learned in mainstream languages he will enjoy the Pharo
> journey
> much more.
>
> Bye
> T.
>
>
